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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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 Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: |
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You have me agreeing with you on many points Big Bird. Mainly I think that the majority of the population (catholics included) of Northern Ireland voted for a ceasefire and the peace process, that makes the current political situation valid, and the path that Sinn Fein are following valid also. That process says that negotiation is the way forward. You might think I am an English hating person, but nothing could be further from the truth. I simply grew up in a time where there were soldiers on the streets, hunger strikers dying and the word on the wall literally said "the armalite and the ballot box." Old habits die hard or learned behaviour, however you want to look at it.
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Whether we like it or not, Irish Protestants are there to stay. They have as much right to be there as white yanks or white aussies have to be in their new respective lands. In fact, you could argue that they are practically your brethren since the Ulster Scots who mostly settled Ulster were in fact themselves mostly descended from Irish who had once left Ireland - centuries before - to settle in Scotland, and then returned to settle in Ulster in the 17th Century (an interesting fact I learnt when I studied linguistics believe it or not -migration is such a complicated thing, is it not?)...
...You need to start treating them as fellow Irish, and not as foreign invaders (they've been there - what? - 400 years now?). |
You're preaching to the choir here. I've said to friends and colleagues before that Protestants are just as Irish as I am. Where would I ask them to go, how could I ask someone whose family has lived in Ireland for hundreds of years, to go? Another reason is I have close family that are Ulster Protestants, just as I have family in the Met, and family that served in the British army, just as there are others who are from the Nationalist community. Makes for some interesting New Year's parties, but doesn't help to make political choices any easier. Maybe it should, as it would appear that a peaceful Ireland is in my family's best interests.
You can see I'm well aware of the complexity of the situation. Perhaps that's why I'm so frustrated and took this opportunity to lash out, (semi-)anonymously on an internet forum. I'm not being petulant though, when I say that I am not convinced that non-violence is the answer to everything, including the Northern Ireland situation. I will agree that currently it seems to be working and perhaps the CIRA are dinosaurs, to be laid to rest eventually. Bitter, maybe. Sad that Ireland is not one country, definitely. But, patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels. Does that apply in this case? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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One problem with the English language is the common use of the pronoun 'you' as a second person plural. I could use 'one' but Anglophobes like ManinaMuddle would get their knickers in a knot over it, thinking I was being a posh and superious Brit.  So I wasn't meaning to say that you in particular were treating Protestants as foreigner invaders - I meant Catholics more generally.
I have enjoyed conversing with you. Interestingly it's a topic that tends to rile up plastic paddies from America or Australia, who enjoy wallowing in outrage and victimhood on behalf of distant ancestors, foolishly imagining they are confronting (in the form of moi) their very own Olivia Cromwell and re-fighting the battles of the past, never having considered that despite an English accent I might be as 'genetically Irish' as they are, if not more so - and I've rarely been in an argument about it with a real Oirish chap (except once - on the internet - where else?). I do find that that the Irish themselves are much saner and rational in discussing this than the pretenders, and I didn't necessarily assume you had a narrow and simplistic view of it. It seems our only real substantial difference is that I don't think violence was a useful tactic (in the context of the last few decades of conflict) and you do. But I like that you concede that the majority (including Catholics) have voted for the peace process, and therefore against CIRA and RIRA etc. who have no mandate to indulge in their current violence.
| it's full of stars wrote: |
| I am not convinced that non-violence is the answer to everything, including the Northern Ireland situation. |
This question - whether non-violence is the answer to everything - is one I've pondered often. I concede - that in a wider context - that I am (sadly) not convinced either. But in the context of late twentieth century Ulster, I am 99% convinced that it was a poor strategy (on all sides).
Finally, my cheeky mother used to say (possibly to rile up my dad) that the biggest problem in Ulster was that the conflict had stunted the economy, thereby discouraging immigration to Belfast by blacks and Asians. More blacks and Asians would help the warring factions focus their animosity away from each other and onto the immigrants, and even unite them in a shared sense of rightful belonging! Actually, twice on differing occasions, elderly Irish I knew who settled (or whose parents settled) in the UK have said similarly that the best thing that ever happened for the Irish in England was black immigration to the UK - replacing them as a target for discrimination - so perhaps she's not far wrong... hehe... |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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duplicate
Last edited by Big_Bird on Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/10/northernireland-northernireland
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Sucked into the recurring nightmare
The old absolutism of Northern Ireland still holds its seductions � for those young enough not to have experienced its effects
I wake in my childhood bedroom. From the kitchen, I hear my mother's footfall as she makes breakfast, and the sound of a radio. And from that radio comes news of an overnight killing, the presenter's voice calm yet weary, summarising the logistical details of death and the round-up of political reaction.
I was born in Belfast in 1974. The worst year of Ireland's modern troubles had come two years before that, but the conflict still had a generation left to run. News of bombings, of beatings, of a dead body found in a city back alley or on a wet country road, was the grim drumbeat beneath my teenage years. Like so many of my generation, I got out as fast as I could: to university in England, to a new life in Dublin and, eventually, to New York, where I live now.
I come home about three times a year, and I find myself here, now, watching as this place lurches toward the darkness once more. The killing of two British soldiers outside their barracks at the weekend, and of a policeman last night in Craigavon, had an awful and heavy familiarity. It felt, and feels, like being sucked back into an old, recurring nightmare that you thought had finally been put to rest.
In these past few days, Northern Ireland has also shown, once again, its capacity to throw up events that are utterly shocking and yet somehow unsurprising.
Republican dissidents have been trying for many months to carry out the kind of actions that came to dreadful fruition over the weekend and last night.
More broadly, there has for some time been a significant and dangerous disconnect between how Northern Ireland is perceived from the outside and the situation on the ground. Internationally, it is (or was, until the weekend) hailed as an exemplar of successful conflict resolution; locally, noxious sectarianism and a broader frustration still hang in the air.
In part, those feelings are a straightforward result of the halting pace of change. From a distance, observers looked at the hitherto inconceivable spectacle of Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness joining each other in government two years ago, and shook their heads in wonder at how fast the world could advance. Up close, the North's recent history has been marked by a series of interminable squabbles about everything from decommissioning to, latterly, the devolution of policing and the existence, or otherwise, of the IRA itself.
There is another problem, too. Those closest to the conflict in the North lived for years in an absolutist world. Whether that world was defined by slogans of "No Surrender" or "Brits Out", it left those who inhabited it ill-prepared for the compromises and ambiguities of the peace process.
Leaders such as Gerry Adams have done an extraordinary job in keeping the schism-prone Republican movement together to the extent that they have done. And those of Adams' generation who have an appetite for a return to war are few and far between.
But the old absolutism still holds its seductions � especially for those young enough not to have experienced its consequences.
Up until this weekend, those loyal to the Sinn F�in line were able to use two arguments to discredit the dissidents: first, that they had negligible popular support; second, that, veering between the catastrophe of Omagh and a series of botched attacks, they had little capacity to follow through on their bellicose rhetoric. The second plank has begun to crumble in the past few days.
The attacks in Antrim and Craigavon have been described by many politicians as an attack on the peace process. Really, though, they are a challenge to the current Republican leadership � and to the sense of complacency that too many of us have clung to for too long.
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Some commentators are painting quite a grim picture. I am hoping this is all just a hiccup, but one thing that concerns me are indications that many youngsters (who don't appreciate the horrors of The Troubles) find the CIRA and RIRA rather glamorous. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Are you Irish?
No, I'm British.
Is you 'ere on 'oliday then?
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| it's full of stars wrote: |
Are you Irish?
No, I'm British.
Is you 'ere on 'oliday then?
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I thought you'd enjoy that bit. 
I loved the bit where he appeared not to get the joke about Ian Paisley's "I love the Pope" T-shirt. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Congrats Big Bird!
You win the Annual Korean Forum Award for "Persistent Effort to Resuscitate One's Own Thread."
Back to back to back to back posts. Jolly good show, my feathered friend! |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Congrats Big Bird!
You win the Annual Korean Forum Award for "Persistent Effort to Resuscitate One's Own Thread."
Back to back to back to back posts. Jolly good show, my feathered friend! |
You win the award for lamest attempt at wit.
In other words: you've got (and had) absolutely nothing to say on this thread (you clearly know sweet FA about the topic, given that you had never even heard of 'the Troubles') and apparantly come here only to look for me. You must be my number 1 fan, darling.
Ooh, look. I've bumped it again.  |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Don't flatter yourself, Big Chick; I've more than heard of "The Troubles."
But that nauseating yet quintessential British euphemism should be buried for good.
My undergraduate thesis adviser many moons ago was James S. Donnelly, Jr., former chair of the History Department at the University of Wisconsin and a world-renowned expert on Anglo-Irish relations.
The only time I speak of troubles is with the wonderful Star Trek episode, "The Trouble with Tribbles." But, alas, it doesn't require an -s. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Don't flatter yourself, Big Chick; I've more than heard of "The Troubles."
But that nauseating yet quintessential British euphemism should be buried for good.
My undergraduate thesis adviser many moons ago was James S. Donnelly, Jr., former chair of the History Department at the University of Wisconsin at a world-renowned expert on Anglo-Irish relations.
The only time I speak of troubles is with the wonderful Star Trek episode, "The Trouble with Tribbles." But, alas, it doesn't require an -s. |
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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Don't flatter yourself, Big Chick; I've more than heard of "The Troubles."
But that nauseating yet quintessential British euphemism should be buried for good.
My undergraduate thesis adviser many moons ago was James S. Donnelly, Jr., former chair of the History Department at the University of Wisconsin at a world-renowned expert on Anglo-Irish relations.
The only time I speak of troubles is with the wonderful Star Trek episode, "The Trouble with Tribbles." But, alas, it doesn't require an -s. |
I've heard people say 'Troubles'. I can see the border(literally) from my house in Ireland, and my ma is from the north. I went to university there and spent every summer of my childhood in Tyrone. People say 'troubles' to refer to the 'conflict in northern ireland'.
What did your advisor call it? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Looks interesting. I'll give it a read later when I can justify a bit of slacking. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Don't flatter yourself, Big Chick; I've more than heard of "The Troubles."
But that nauseating yet quintessential British euphemism should be buried for good.
My undergraduate thesis adviser many moons ago was James S. Donnelly, Jr., former chair of the History Department at the University of Wisconsin and a world-renowned expert on Anglo-Irish relations.
The only time I speak of troubles is with the wonderful Star Trek episode, "The Trouble with Tribbles." But, alas, it doesn't require an -s. |
The Troubles (as I understand it) is a term centuries old that has now come to mean the current conflict that re-emerged rom the 60s.
I don't recall ever hearing it referred to as such in the news - it's normally just called "the conflict in Northern Ireland." I'm not sure how you will police the individuals who use it. Perhaps you can tour our isles, lecturing all you meet on their use of the term. I don't recall any of my English friends using the term the Troubles. In my experience it has generally been the Irish themselves that have used it, so it may be more efficient if you begin your self-righteous scolding there. I would very much enjoy the imagery of you doing so, and the reception you will get there. Good luck, old son. While you're at it, you could give The Blitz or The Somme or perhaps Gallipoli a new name to better suit your tastes.
Whatever it may have been, 'quaint euphemism' or not (and I would be interested to see if it really did act as a euphemism in pre-Victorian English) it is now just a standard piece of vocabulary used to refer to the current conflict in Northern Ireland. Much quicker to say 'the Troubles' than 'the conflict in Northern Ireland spanning from the 60s to current times.' I don't believe the term has any special implication to its users, or 'lessens its gravity' in anyone else's mind but your own. It's taken on a permanent life of its own. Kind of the way calling someone a bastard in the 21st Century doesn't mean a slur on that person's parentage, the Troubles doesn't refer to a 'just a wee bit of trouble going on in Belfast.' |
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