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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: |
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No.
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| Islamicism (not Islam) only really started in the 1920s in Egypt (at least from my understanding) and has only been spread about the world in recent decades |
Bottom line, the above statement is shockingly wrong. As gopher would say, nothing more, nothing less.
Given the islamic expansion into Europe which is a current event, the islamic expansions into Egypt, Persia, India, Syria etc etc are relevant. I know, I know, you traveled back in time and had coffee with a jihading muslim, and he insisted that it was all political, don't you see. Etc. Save it. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
No.
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| Islamicism (not Islam) only really started in the 1920s in Egypt (at least from my understanding) and has only been spread about the world in recent decades |
Bottom line, the above statement is shockingly wrong. As gopher would say, nothing more, nothing less.
Given the islamic expansion into Europe which is a current event, the islamic expansions into Egypt, Persia, India, Syria etc etc are relevant. I know, I know, you traveled back in time and had coffee with a jihading muslim, and he insisted that it was all political, don't you see. Etc. Save it. |
Rather than take you for a ride on a magic carpet, I googled up a few links for you. I was looking for something more concise, but this was the best I could do in a few minutes:
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Islamism is an ideology that demands man's complete adherence to the sacred law of Islam and rejects as much as possible outside influence, with some exceptions (such as access to military and medical technology). It is imbued with a deep antagonism towards non-Muslims and has a particular hostility towards the West. It amounts to an effort to turn Islam, a religion and civilization, into an ideology.
The word "Islamism" is highly appropriate, for this is an "-ism" like other "-isms" such as fascism and nationalism. Islamism turns the bits and pieces within Islam that deal with politics, economics, and military affairs into a sustained and systematic program. As the leader of the Muslim Brethren put it some years ago, "the Muslims are not socialist nor capitalist; they are Muslims." I find it very telling that he compares Muslims to socialists and capitalists and not to Christians or Jews. He is saying, we are not this "-ism," we are that "-ism." Islamism offers a way of approaching and controlling state power. It openly relies on state power for coercive purposes.
Islamism is, in other words, yet another twentieth-century radical utopian scheme. Like Marxism-Leninism or fascism, it offers a way to control the state, run society, and remake the human being. It is an Islamic-flavored version of totalitarianism. The details, of course, are very different from the preceding versions, but the ultimate purpose is very similar.
Islamism is also a total transformation of traditional Islam; it serves as a vehicle of modernization. The ideology deals with the problems of urban living, of working women and others at the cutting edge, and not the traditional concerns of farmers. As Olivier Roy, the French scholar, puts it, "Rather than a reaction against the modernization of Muslim societies, Islamism is a product of it." Islamism is not a medieval program but one that responds to the stress and strains of the twentieth century. |
Distinguishing between Islam and Islamism
And
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| Though neutral on Islam, I take a strong stand on Islamism, which I see as very different. Islam is the religion of the Qur'an and the Sunna; Islamism is the political path of Hasan al-Banna, Abu'l-A`la al-Mawdudi, and Ayatollah Khomeini. The former is (in the Muslim view) eternal or (in the non-Muslim view) fourteen centuries old; the latter is a twentieth-century phenomenon. The one is a faith, the other an ideology. Whereas the closest parallels to Islam are Judaism and Christianity, those closest to Islamism are other radical utopian "isms," namely fascism and Marxism-Leninism |
Daniel Pipes Explains 'Islamism'
Islamism (or Islamicism) is a new ideology that arose early in the twentieth century. Having said that, there are those that consider the founding of the Wahabi movement to be the beginnings of Islamism: Islam Perverted. But I kind of think they got conflated when the Saudis started funding Islamism in Egypt, and the Muslim Brotherhood took on a Wahabi flavour.
Anyhow, I don't see much point in this dance we do. We just go round in circles. Pointless. You the Henny Penny shreiking the 'sky is falling!' and me wasting my time by bothering to respond to it.
Perhaps we should wait until you have something new to add, before we discuss this again. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: |
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No. "islamisim" is just boring old islam in a western style state. In a caliphate there is no reason for islamism as the premise that islam will dominate is the premise of the caliphate.
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| Perhaps we should wait until you have something new to add, before we discuss this again. |
What could be new? The slow transformation of secular Europe into a region demographically dominated by obedient muslims will, I'm sure, go off without any problems what so ever. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Sigh. Yawn. Whatever. Goodnight. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Modern homosexual identity has only slowly emerged in the Middle East, and has sometimes faced great hostility. I say sometimes because real-life Muslim societies are not as puritanical as outsiders or local elites imagine. It is obvious that American writer Paul Bowles liked living in Tangiers precisely because anything went as long as it stayed fairly private. In cosmopolitan Muslim cultures like Egypt, at best the modern gay subculture is winked at, but sometimes there are crackdowns. The situation resembles the US in, say, the 1930s and 1940s, when the police would arrest gays. In a radical Muslim regime like Taliban Afghanistan, gays were executed. This was in part an attempt to keep discipline in the Taliban military ranks, which were notorious for gay liaisons. So there is a spectrum. |
Yeah wow Juan Cole what a spectrum...a spectrum between police arrest and death. Also in the US we didn't have laws in the 30's and 40's saying it was ok to publicly execute gays. He's rolling his turd of an idea in sugar. Don't eat it..
If you want practical steps as to what a person can do then let's try treating muslims as adults when it comes to the gay issue. For example ask a muslim friend what he or she would think if we had laws that called for the execution of Muslims. I doubt he'd come back with an answer like, "well you know... If only 4 of 5 (and the fith just calls for a beating) schools of thought are for the execution of Muslims, well then we'll just settle for the beating,"...no it's wrong period and people should speak out about it.
It's like the civilized Southerner in the 60's saying, "well I don't agree with Jim Crow and it doesn't really happen that often...so.."
How about more pressure on Muslims to get out and protest for gay rights. How about naming Imams that think it's ok if Sharia law says it's ok to kill gays (mind you not bar them from jobs, but Killing them). For example
1.Yousef Qaradawi
2. Muhammed Hassan
3. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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A gay Muslim in EastEnders? Big deal
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When I first read that the BBC soap opera EastEnders was gearing up for a storyline involving a Muslim man locking lips with a gay character my first reaction was, who watches EastEnders anymore anyway and well, how about that for a sensationalist stunt to win a tired old soap some headlines while sending the rightwing tabloids into a frenzy at the gay-Muslim spectacle.
And I could almost anticipate the ensuing chatter, likely to lament the over-exposure of Muslims who are either being pandered to by the PC brigade or displaying hot-headed overreaction at the slightest provocation.
So far so predictable. Or is it? News of the plot comes just weeks after a Gallup survey was widely reported as revealing that British Muslims have a 0% approval rating of gay lifestyles. It would be unwise to jump to conclusions based on this figure. The truth is that while the issue of homosexuality in Islam is one that preoccupies many non-Muslims, it is not a defining aspects of belief for the majority of Muslims. In simple terms, for the average Muslim going about his or her business, it is hardly a primary concern what strangers get up to between the sheets.
Yes, traditional Islamic opinion, in line with the other Abrahamic faiths, advocates and promotes sexual expression between a husband and wife and disapproves of anything that falls outside those boundaries, hence the 0% statistic. But that does not translate into the sanctioning hostility, discrimination or violence against those who occupy another position on the sexuality spectrum.
Isolating quotes in the Qur'an and hadith to claim that Islam advocates punishment by death for homosexuals is simplistic. Such evidence is disputed and nevertheless punishment is subject to near-impossible conditions rendering it un-actionable. The Muslim community would do well to work towards seeing homosexuality not as something to be for or to be against, but rather as a fact of life. Because that is exactly what it is for gay Muslims, whether they act upon their feelings or not.
To pretend that homosexuality does not exist within the Muslim community in Britain is deluded. Increasingly confident gay Muslim support groups have recently emerged to provide a voice for the minority and acknowledge its presence.
Exploring sexuality outside marriage is an intensely personal experience and any portrayal in a soap opera of a Muslim embarking on a homosexual affair is likely to attract accusations of opportunism, particularly with Muslims already feeling so negatively scrutinised.
But it may be worth Muslims holding fire and not giving their detractors the satisfaction of reacting as might be expected. EastEnders producers have stated their intention to approach the story from the perspective of personal conflict and entanglement rather than casting judgment upon an entire religion.
Those who wish to can watch to see whether this proves to be the case. The rest can carry on as before.
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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And here's a bit on the poll she was talking about.
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Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance towards homosexual acts compared to their counterparts in France and Germany, according to a survey published today.
The Gallup poll features the results of telephone and face-to-face interviews with Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK, France and Germany and is designed to measure global attitudes towards people from different faith traditions.
It shows that British Muslims hold more conservative opinions towards homosexual acts, abortion, viewing pornography, suicide and sex outside marriage than European Muslims, polling markedly lower when asked if they believed these things were morally acceptable.
The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. 1,001 non-Muslim Britons were interviewed.
By comparison, 35% of French Muslims found homosexual acts to be acceptable. A question on pornography also elicited different reactions, with French and German Muslims more likely than British Muslims to believe that watching or reading pornography was morally acceptable.
On the issue of sexual relations between unmarried men and women, general populations surveyed express similar views, with the majority believing it was acceptable. But the Muslim populations polled again reflected greater diversity on the matter. French Muslims ranked highest again, with 48% believing it was acceptable, followed by 27% of German Muslims responding favourably. British Muslims came last, with only 3% of those questioned personally believing that sex between unmarried men and women was moral. There was a similar outcome when asked for their views on extra-marital affairs.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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This is my one and only post on the topic:
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How long did that promise last BB?
LOL, ah I like you.
Though you do take yourself too seriously.
We all have our beliefs and we would all probably think less of someone who gave them up too easily. LOL. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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This is my one and only post on the topic:
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How long did that promise last BB?
LOL, ah I like you.
Though you do take yourself too seriously. |
How would you know? Maybe you take me too seriously? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| How would you know? |
I have read your posts over the years.
One time I supported Israel in a post and you called me a fundamentalist christian in your first response to it.
Almost as if you believed that anyone who supported the notion of a single Jewish state in the world had to be one (unless they are a jew?).
NO, LOL.
I can read and you do take some things too personal. Though thats your cause and you stand for it. I wont hold that against you. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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| How would you know? |
I have read your posts over the years.
One time I supported Israel in a post and you called me a fundamentalist christian in your first response to it.
Almost as if you believed that anyone who supported the notion of a single Jewish state in the world had to be one (unless they are a jew?).
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Well then, you didn't understand what you were reading then did you?
I don't recall labelling you a fundamentalist Christian at all. Though I did mock you for being a fake Christian, because you had been blathering on about Christianity over the years, but it seems your Christian love and compassion is only extended to non-muslims. And that was gleaned from your wholesale rants about muslims on other threads. I remember you started a silly thread where you demanded in your OP that I answered to your reckoning. So worried you were for the Israeli prisioner, and so unconcerned for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners (including child prisoners locked up in violation of international law).
But yes, if you believe in a racist Jewish state, then that would generally make you either a hard core Zionist, or some sort of a religion loon from the Christian right. Rational people tend to believe that Israel should be for all its occupants, not just Jews, just like any other modern democracy. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
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| None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. |
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Wait a sec, like 40 of them are gay!
Edit: No, wait! I see what I've done there, disregard that! |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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I don't recall labelling you a fundamentalist Christian at all. Though I did mock you for being a fake Christian, because you had been blathering on about Christianity over the years, but it seems your Christian love and compassion is only extended to non-muslims..
I don't hate all muslims and (if I have said that I am sorry). I hate wahabism and extremist Islam and always have. (For that I am not sorry).
[quote][b]So worried you were for the Israeli prisioner, and so unconcerned for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners (including child prisoners locked up in violation of international law). [/quo[/b]te]
Yes, I worry more about an Israeli prisoner than a palestinian because they seem to have shorter life spans. The fact that Israel or its supporters have prisoners and the Palestinians and thier supporters have bodies should be a concern for everyone.
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| But yes, if you believe in a racist Jewish state, then that would generally make you either a hard core Zionist, or some sort of a religion loon from the Christian right |
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So according to your logic I should hate a racist Israel but support a racist palestine and then if I don't and you do, what do I call you?
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| Rational people tend to believe that Israel should be for all its occupants, not just Jews, just like any other modern democracy. |
Who says those that support Israel don't believe that? Though does that mean we have to mean that all Jews should be driven out? How many jews exist in the middle east? How many live in those countries that accept them as full and equal citizens?
BB, I don't condone the crimes of the Jews in Israel, but if no other country acts with any more love, then why should I just judge them?
If the world hates one people,should I hate them as well? Why? Because I am told that they are the enemy, when I can find you ten times more examples of people and countries that have done worse. So why? Why is thier crime more unacceptable than any others?
Is it the crime that the Nazis and others used? "You are Christ killers!"
Is that why I should hate thier actions and not others? Why should Iranian Muslims kill and destroy non muslims and create a country from thier blood? Why should I accept it and not accept Israel? Why BB?
(post edit) Yes I know its a historical argument but isn't Israel vs the arabs a historical argument? I wasn't born when the country was created. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
So according to your logic I should hate a racist Israel but support a racist palestine and then if I don't and you do, what do I call you? |
No, not according to my logic. This looks like your own pretty whacked logic, and one reason I don't usually pay much attention to you (except on those occasions you rant on my threads, or create threads for the particular purpose of speaking to me).
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| Rational people tend to believe that Israel should be for all its occupants, not just Jews, just like any other modern democracy. |
Who says those that support Israel don't believe that? Though does that mean we have to mean that all Jews should be driven out? How many jews exist in the middle east? How many live in those countries that accept them as full and equal citizens?
BB, I don't condone the crimes of the Jews in Israel, but if no other country acts with any more love, then why should I just judge them?
If the world hates one people,should I hate them as well? Why? Because I am told that they are the enemy, when I can find you ten times more examples of people and countries that have done worse. So why? Why is thier crime more unacceptable than any others?
Is it the crime that the Nazis and others used? "You are Christ killers!"
Is that why I should hate thier actions and not others? Why should Iranian Muslims kill and destroy non muslims and create a country from thier blood? Why should I accept it and not accept Israel? Why BB?
(post edit) Yes I know its a historical argument but isn't Israel vs the arabs a historical argument? I wasn't born when the country was created. |
I gave up reading that half way through. Come back when you've learned how to argue rationally.
Cheers. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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quote][b]So worried you were for the Israeli prisioner, and so unconcerned for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners (including child prisoners locked up in violation of international law). [/quote]
Yes, I worry more about an Israeli prisoner than a palestinian because they seem to have shorter life spans. The fact that Israel or its supporters have prisoners and the Palestinians and thier supporters have bodies should be a concern for everyone.
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[/b]
I would be interested in hearing your response as to why this occurs.
Why have palestinians or Hizbellah killed thier prisoners and sent the bodies back, while Israel managed to send a live terrorist/prisoner home in return.
Why? |
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