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Obama's new "safe schools" czar....pedophile?
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On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:22 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

Fox wrote:

fiveeagles wrote:

Schools shouldn't be teaching 10 years olds about sex...

I think otherwise.

I could see it from both sides. But from 12 onwards (i.e. 6th grade), definitely would say schools should be teaching sex ed.

Yeah, but I think a big part of the debate comes down to how we actually define Sex Education. Is it simply the basic biological facts of reproduction? Or does it include things like masturbation, contraception etc? As well, nowadays you've got the whole issue of schools trying to instill a more tolerant attitude towards homosexuals and whatnot, which some regard as an intrusion into the realm of private belief.

For myself, I'm slightly dubious about attempts to influence social attitudes through the school system. Partly, I guess it just goes against my latent libertarian sensibilites for the schools to be used as conduits for attitude adjustment, even in cases where I'm sympathetic to the views being promoted.

As well, on a practical level, I question how effective it would be. When I was in middle-school, there were two groups of people we hated with a passion: homosexuals, and our teachers. So, if one of our teachers had come into class one day and started lecturing us about how homosexuals are these wonderful people whose lifestyle deserves respect, it would probably have had the opposite effect of what was intended.

Having said that, if anti-gay bullying and whatnot is taking place in schools, there should be a zero-tolerance for that. But I think it's possible to clamp down on such bullying, without getting into the realm of attitude adjustment.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:32 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

bucheon bum wrote:

Fox wrote:

fiveeagles wrote:

Schools shouldn't be teaching 10 years olds about sex...

I think otherwise.

I could see it from both sides. But from 12 onwards (i.e. 6th grade), definitely would say schools should be teaching sex ed.

It should clearly include things like masturbation and contraception. Those things, in fact, are far more important for children to learn about than the biology of sexual reproduction.

Time to stop letting our educational system be held hostage to a value system that demonizes basic human sexuality. If individual parents don't want their children participating, they can pull them out of class.

On the other hand wrote:

As well, nowadays you've got the whole issue of schools trying to instill a more tolerant attitude towards homosexuals and whatnot, which some regard as an intrusion into the realm of private belief.

And I'm sure there are some parents who feel schools trying to instill a more tolerant attitude towards blacks is an intrusion into the realm of private belief. That's not to say whether schools should be doing this or not, just that if schools shouldn't be doing it, it's not because it's an "intrusion into the realm of private belief."

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:53 am Post subject:

Quote:

I don't know that I would agree that it is in fact the responsibility of schools to teach more tolerant attitudes towards blacks, or any other group. I think schools have an obligation to educate all students equally, and treat black students the same as all other students, plus ensure that black students aren't subjected to discrimination, from teachers or other students.

But that's not the same thing as teaching kids that "racism is wrong", which is essentially an opinion statement(albeit one that I happen to strongly agree with). As a rough comparison, if a kid is taught by his parents that the Pope is the Antichrist and the Catholic Church the *beep* Of Babylon, we don't allow him to put that theory into practice by coming to school and beating up Catholic kids. On the other hand, we probably wouldn't think it's the duty of the school to give classeoom lectures about how protestant fundamentalism is wrong about the nature of Catholicsm, and that Catholics are actually very nice people, etc.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:27 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

How can you ensure black students aren't subjected to discrimination from other students without promoting tolerant attitudes? Even if you limit it to punishing students when they behave in an intolerant or discriminatory fashion, it's still teaching a more tolerant attitude. It's just teaching it using negative reinforcement; don't discriminate against your fellow classmates for being black, or you'll pay a price. But why stop there? Why not try to help children understand why they shouldn't discriminate in the first place?

On the other hand wrote:

But that's not the same thing as teaching kids that "racism is wrong", which is essentially an opinion statement(albeit one that I happen to strongly agree with).

I don't agree it's an opinion statement. Racism is demonstratably wrong, because the results of racism hurt our society. Why on Earth should we be tolerant of such a thing?

On the other hand wrote:

As a rough comparison, if a kid is taught by his parents that the Pope is the Antichrist and the Catholic Church the *beep* Of Babylon, we don't allow him to put that theory into practice by coming to school and beating up Catholic kids. On the other hand, we probably wouldn't think it's the duty of the school to give classeoom lectures about how protestant fundamentalism is wrong about the nature of Catholicsm, and that Catholics are actually very nice people, etc.

I think it's totally reasonable for a school to attempt to encourage a respect for religious diversity in its students. We live in a diverse society; some measure of tolerance and mutual respect is required to live along side one another. I find this idea that our nation's educators should keep out of a child's ethical development to be incredibly questionable, to be honest. Your child isn't your property, it's an independent living being that will only benefit from receiving ethical education from a plurality of sources.

Teachers are important figures in a child's life. Their responsibilities extend beyond merely teaching mathematics or reading, and into teaching about life and the living thereof. That includes teaching about how to interact with other people in the world. I see no reason to prevent teachers from fulfilling those responsibilities by helping children become reasoned, tolerant members of society who understand that living in a diverse society involves accepting people who are different than yourself.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:37 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

Fox wrote:

fiveeagles wrote:

Schools shouldn't be teaching 10 years olds about sex...

I think otherwise.

I could see it from both sides. But from 12 onwards (i.e. 6th grade), definitely would say schools should be teaching sex ed.

We had 12-year-olds coming in for abortions in the hospital I used to work at. Maybe 10 is not too early, at least for girls.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:12 am Post subject:

Quote:

I don't agree it's an opinion statement. Racism is demonstratably wrong, because the results of racism hurt our society. Why on Earth should we be tolerant of such a thing?

Well, something can be both harmful to society, and an opinion. We could probably all think of political parties which advance policies that almost everyone agrees would harm society in some way. It doesn't follow that the schools have a mandate to propagandize against those parties. (Which is not to say that schools shouldn't teach students about these parties and what they believe, as part of discussion about the political spectrum).

Quote:

I dunno. I mean, there are some religions that I just don't like, and if I were a parent, I would want to reserve the right to advise my children against them, without having the schools butt in and say "Well, you know, Scientology isn't all that bad because..." And I think that's compatible with the idea that students can also be taught about the facts of various religions, from a hopefully neutral perspective.

Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:46 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

I think it's totally reasonable for a school to attempt to encourage a respect for religious diversity in its students.

All imaginary friends aren't equal. Kids should not be taught to give respect to organized hatred. They should be taught to think for themselves and Always Be Critical. Religion isn't some quaint thing that we tolerate. It is the primary force of regression in the world.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

Fox wrote:

I think it's totally reasonable for a school to attempt to encourage a respect for religious diversity in its students.

Of course, then we get into the question of what exactly constitutes "thinking critically". I'm sure you've encountered left-wingers who would say that teaching critical thinking about religion involves promoting the idea that Christianity is inherently evil and patriarchal, whereas Muslims are all just misunderstood social democrats. And of course, there are right-wingers SoCon types who would, with no more accuracy, say the opposite.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject:

Left wingers don't want to teach how to think but what to think. Same for the right, of course. Students should be taught how to think. And lots of maths. Anyways: Here is a book that drips in hatred for Christians and Jews, among others. http://tinyurl.com/yk4weuj Should kids be taught to "tolerate" it, celebrate it, convert to it or what? How about critically examine it. No. This diversity obsession is anti-intellectual (ergo it goes over really well in modern western society).

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

I don't agree it's an opinion statement. Racism is demonstratably wrong, because the results of racism hurt our society. Why on Earth should we be tolerant of such a thing?

Well, something can be both harmful to society, and an opinion.

I agree. In fact, most things that are harmful to society are also things people happen to hold opinions about.

On the other hand wrote:

We could probably all think of political parties which advance policies that almost everyone agrees would harm society in some way. It doesn't follow that the schools have a mandate to propagandize against those parties. (Which is not to say that schools shouldn't teach students about these parties and what they believe, as part of discussion about the political spectrum).

There's a difference between teaching about generalities like racism and tolerance, and the specifics of political platforms.

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

When a parent wants the rest of society to be silent on the matter so they and they alone can inform their child on a given issue, I wonder about their motives. Parents can say what they like, but if it's totally out of sync with what the rest of society is saying, the child may well wonder why.

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