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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Sideshow, but the issue has appeared:
How exactly is "Europe" a physically discrete entity like "Africa" or "North America?" It is not; it is geographically distinct by convention, because those peoples and cultures who live there want to stress difference between themselves and those who live to the east of them in Eurasia, the actual continental landmass. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Sideshow, but the issue has appeared:
How exactly is "Europe" a physically discrete entity like "Africa" or "North America?" It is not; it is geographically distinct by convention, because those peoples and cultures who live there want to stress difference between themselves and those who live to the east of them in Eurasia, the actual continental landmass. |
I had a geography instructor who said the same thing, that Europe is part of the continent called Asia in his mind. And if there is a separation between Asia and Europe, then why is Cyprus considered part of Europe?
Geographical separation is somewhat tricky. The Sinai Peninsula is considered part of Southwest Asia and the rest of Egypt is considered to be part of Africa. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Yea ok, that is true. I don't think there is any geographic reason to separate Europe from Asia. I also don't think there is any real threat of our Europeness being significantly eroded by Islamic immigrants. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
It's easy avoiding the real world and not applying yourself, isn't it?
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Yes. I'm very happy right now.
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depends on your definition of take over: surrender-happy European nations such as Ireland already capitulate:
http://europenews.dk/en/node/28798
Irish make crosses out of feces & spray feces on bibles for "art", Sinead Oconnor tears up bibles; but we all know what political motivation prompted a 'blasphemy law'. No irish person has the cohones to make some 'poopy mohammed' "art": |
Ireland is an overwhelmingly catholic society. I'd expect any weird art to be Christian based.
also it doesn't take cahones to make offensive art. it just takes a lack of taste. Sinead O Connor was a diff situation.
Last edited by JMO on Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Yea ok, that is true. I don't think there is any geographic reason to separate Europe from Asia. I also don't think there is any real threat of our Europeness being significantly eroded by Islamic immigrants. |
You're not paying attention. All over Europe governments are passing laws about what people can wear, say, build. All because of muslims. This is just starting. The Swiss ban, the riots, attempted murder of cartoonists, the car fires.. All this will look like the good ol' days in short order. You have your head in the sand. Europe is already permanently changing. What will this continued change produce over 30 years? How long will the local soccer mobs tolerate their colonization?
The Native Americans might have a few ideas about this. Or the Copts. And others. History ain't over. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:44 am Post subject: |
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It's karma for all of the whites Europe has sent to North America, Australia, South America, and elsewhere.  |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
You're not paying attention. All over Europe governments are passing laws about what people can wear, say, build. All because of muslims. This is just starting. The Swiss ban, the riots, attempted murder of cartoonists, the car fires.. All this will look like the good ol' days in short order. You have your head in the sand. Europe is already permanently changing. What will this continued change produce over 30 years? How long will the local soccer mobs tolerate their colonization?
The Native Americans might have a few ideas about this. Or the Copts. And others. History ain't over. |
I think the flaw in your thinking is the assumption that the change will be continued and unabated. You assume that the birth rate will continue at the present rate.. that is not a given.
These are poor people. That in itself leads to a high birth rate. The birth rate will drop as they get even marginally richer.
Over the next thirty years I think Europe will change. We will be clamouring for immigrants to come in as birth rates are dangerously low.
I think within 20 years we will think of islam as just part and parcel of European life. The young Islamic generations will have tasted money..it will become less and less fanatical over time.
the assimilation might not be smooth but it never has been. I don't think it will be a bad thing long term though. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:59 am Post subject: |
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[quote="JMO"]
| mises wrote: |
The young Islamic generations will have tasted money..it will become less and less fanatical over time.
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I've read that the second and third generation of Muslim immigrants are, if anything, even more fundamentalist. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:17 am Post subject: |
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[quote="caniff"]
| JMO wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
The young Islamic generations will have tasted money..it will become less and less fanatical over time.
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I've read that the second and third generation of Muslim immigrants are, if anything, even more fundamentalist. |
Where did you read that? Could you cite a source? A source I read said that Muslims born in Europe feel more connected to the ones born abroad. Why would Muslims be extremely different than other immigrants? I can't see a third or fourth generation Muslim typically being a fanatic. You are also, by your statement, saying that every Muslim is a fundamentalist. Is every Jew or Christian a fundamentalist by simply stating they believe in their faith? I think you're trying to say that 3rd generation Muslims are more likely to be radical.
A Muslim Arab is less likely to speak any Arabic, have had an Islamic education, will have been exposed to liberal American education. It also depends on the country your examining. A second generation Muslim in France is a marginal person in too many cases. We haven't seen even one third generation American Muslim being radical. We have seen a few second generation ones like Awlaki and Nidal Hasan. We would need someone who would have been born to Nidal's generation in the US to be radical. It's possible, but you are suggesting it's typical.
British Muslims feel the most patriotic in Europe, survey claimsBuzz up!
Digg it
Riazat Butt, Religious affairs correspondent guardian.co.uk, Sunday 13 December 2009 18.39 GMT Article historyBritish Muslims feel a greater sense of patriotism than their counterparts living in mainland Europe, according to a study by the Open Society Institute funded by the billionaire financier and philanthropist George Soros.
In the UK OSI researchers focused on Leicester, which is on course to have a non-white majority by the next census in 2011, and Waltham Forest, east London, where high-profile counter-terrorist operations in 2006 angered and alienated some members of the borough's Muslim community.
They found that levels of patriotism were much higher among second-generation Muslims.
In Leicester, 72% of Muslims born abroad said they felt British and this figure rose to 94% among UK-born Muslims. This compares with 49% of Muslims who considered themselves French and 23% who felt German.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/13/muslims-patriotism-britain-europe |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Mises wrote:
Like other posts on the thread, this one conflates Muslim religious violence with gang violence. But the two aren't always the same thing, even when some the gangsters happen to be Muslim. Edmonton has had a succession of street gangs from various countries, including Cambodian and Vietnamese. Obviously, those groups weren't Muslim.
Even if there were no Muslim fundamentalist extremism, it's quite possible that you would still have gangs from predominantly Muslim countries. Since criminal gangs tend to be driven by the profit motive, not by religious fervour. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| The young Islamic generations will have tasted money...it will become less and less fanatical over time. |
Just like "AbduWali" Hasan and Umar Farouk AbdulMutallab?
Adventurer: every Turk I know explains that those who live in Germany tend to be more gung-ho Turk and Muslim than those who live in Turkey itself. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
This challenges your base assumption and does not have anything to do with the so-called Muslim cultural threat argument.
What exactly does it mean "to be European?" I think this only exists in Europeans' imagination and it requires a rejection of those peoples and cultures to the east of their imaginary land.
Where is the unity that you seem to assume? Certainly not in the former Yugoslavia or in last century's France and Germany... |
I generally agree with you. What I meant is that Europe would not become Pakistan mark II as posters here seem to think inevitable.
I didn't mean to contradict my original point in saying that.
It doesn't really mean anything much to be European. Europeans identify themselves by what country they come from, or even what region in the country they come from. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| The young Islamic generations will have tasted money...it will become less and less fanatical over time. |
Just like "AbduWali" Hasan and Umar Farouk AbdulMutallab?
Adventurer: every Turk I know explains that those who live in Germany tend to be more gung-ho Turk and Muslim than those who live in Turkey itself. |
This is true of Irish emigrants to England back in the day as well. However their great grandkids are fully English. I think that passes with time. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
This challenges your base assumption and does not have anything to do with the so-called Muslim cultural threat argument.
What exactly does it mean "to be European?" I think this only exists in Europeans' imagination and it requires a rejection of those peoples and cultures to the east of their imaginary land.
Where is the unity that you seem to assume? Certainly not in the former Yugoslavia or in last century's France and Germany... |
I generally agree with you. What I meant is that Europe would not become Pakistan mark II as posters here seem to think inevitable.
I didn't mean to contradict my original point in saying that.
It doesn't really mean anything much to be European. Europeans identify themselves by what country they come from, or even what region in the country they come from. |
I posted this but then changed my post. This is an issue that very much attracts my interest. But upon second thought, it seemed too far off topic. In any case, thank you for responding. |
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