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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
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| If Americans really knew what socialism is, it wouldn't be such a 'bad' word in the US. |
Go on then, what is socialism "really"? (can't wait to hear this)... |
Socialism doesn't equal communism. Socialism encourages some government management of the economy. |
Nonsense. Communism is a form of socialism, and is basically the inevitable outcome. Socialism is the government managing the economy, but over time the government squeezes the life out of it like a boa constrictor. The government is also the source of all corruption and monopolies. The robber baron class used the government to take over the free market over a century ago and the same families are running things to this day. The elite love socialism, as it is their greatest tool to dominate society - the negative impact gets blamed on free market capitalism.
| Quote: |
| Public education, labor unions and public health care are all socialist ideas too. Canada and virtually all of Europe have mixed economies, that combine elements of socialism and capitalism. When many Americans hear the word socialism they think Columbia, the rest of the world thinks Canada, Germany and Sweden. |
Canada and Sweden are nothing for the US to aspire to. The US is every bit as socialist as those countries these days, and much to our detriment. Before the government grew as big as it has we were the most powerful economic force in history. The more big government gets involved in the economy, the worse off America becomes. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Believe what you want to believe. |
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mc_jc
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| The government really does control industry? |
The government doesn't control the industrial output...that in itself is communism.
A lot of the accreditation agencies are certified by various departments within the Federal government. So yes, the government does regulate some aspects of industry.
The government controls the permit system for certain industries as well as licensing and taxation, not to mention the health and safety inspections needed to house a business.
However, a lot of the modes of doing business in the US is outmoded and has become more for-profit than before.
However, one of the biggest problems now are the tax cuts implemented by Bush as an incentive for businesses to stay on US soil...it hasn't worked and in fact has allowed many US companies that have subsidiaries overseas to cash-in because of these cuts at the expense of 95% of the American public.
Right now, the biggest thing in the US is housing and healthcare; the housing bubble has burst, causing many to lose their homes in the process. Then healthcare is practically unattainable for many in the lower class. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| That said, lying isn't a crime unless you do it to obtain money (fraud). |
Not true.
(No lie) |
Please, oh please cite something in US judicial precedent which indicates that lying is a crime when a financial transaction is not involved. If I'm wrong, I would seriously like to be corrected.
If I'm right, I'd like to dispel the myth that lying is illegal.
EDIT:
It's illegal to lie about a financial transaction (ex. the quantity of gasoline you pump into your car has to be accurate). It's also illegal to lie while in court officially "under oath". Other than that, lie at will. |
What about Clinton and Lewinsky? He never went to court yet he could have been impeached if it had been proven he lied.
False advertising is also illegal even if no one buys it. Lying to a police officer is also illegal in many cases (you can be charged with obstruction of justice for example)...and the list goes on. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
What about Clinton and Lewinsky? He never went to court yet he could have been impeached if it had been proven he lied.
False advertising is also illegal even if no one buys it. Lying to a police officer is also illegal in many cases (you can be charged with obstruction of justice for example)...and the list goes on. |
Clinton was under oath and was impeached for perjury. Lying to a police officer isn't illegal (but makes you look guilty as hell), obstruction of justice is a very specific charge which sometimes involves lying. False advertising is lying with the intent to commit fraud (financial transaction).
You can lie to anyone at any time in the US and there's nothing they can do about it unless you're under oath or a financial transaction is involved. This goes for politicians as well. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
What about Clinton and Lewinsky? He never went to court yet he could have been impeached if it had been proven he lied.
False advertising is also illegal even if no one buys it. Lying to a police officer is also illegal in many cases (you can be charged with obstruction of justice for example)...and the list goes on. |
Clinton was under oath and was impeached for perjury. Lying to a police officer isn't illegal (but makes you look guilty as hell), obstruction of justice is a very specific charge which sometimes involves lying. False advertising is lying with the intent to commit fraud (financial transaction).
You can lie to anyone at any time in the US and there's nothing they can do about it unless you're under oath or a financial transaction is involved. This goes for politicians as well. |
Except that lying to a police officer under some circumstances is a crime. If you lied about a crime you saw committed you can be charged with obstruction of justice, or accessory after the fact as well as anything else they can think of. |
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kiknkorea
Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| You can lie to anyone at any time in the US and there's nothing they can do about it unless you're under oath or a financial transaction is involved. This goes for politicians as well. |
Completely untrue.
Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States.
http://library.findlaw.com/2004/may/11/147945.html
Lengthy article, but a good read. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| kiknkorea wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| You can lie to anyone at any time in the US and there's nothing they can do about it unless you're under oath or a financial transaction is involved. This goes for politicians as well. |
Completely untrue.
Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States.
http://library.findlaw.com/2004/may/11/147945.html
Lengthy article, but a good read. |
Thanks for the article! The law is interestingly complex. Technically you can lie to private citizens (or "the American public"), but if it later arrives on the desk of a federal official in the course of his or her duties, you can be criminally liable.
I'd recommend reading all of that... it's kind of scary how much power the Feds have with Title 18! |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The government really does control industry? |
The government doesn't control the industrial output...that in itself is communism.
A lot of the accreditation agencies are certified by various departments within the Federal government. So yes, the government does regulate some aspects of industry.
The government controls the permit system for certain industries as well as licensing and taxation, not to mention the health and safety inspections needed to house a business. |
None of the above is necessary, nor is it the proper function of government.
| Quote: |
| However, a lot of the modes of doing business in the US is outmoded and has become more for-profit than before. |
Making profits in business is outmoded? I suppose you'd rather see losses then - after all it's only tax money, so it's fine to just flush it down the toilet...
| Quote: |
| However, one of the biggest problems now are the tax cuts implemented by Bush as an incentive for businesses to stay on US soil...it hasn't worked and in fact has allowed many US companies that have subsidiaries overseas to cash-in because of these cuts at the expense of 95% of the American public. |
Just how do tax cuts amount to any kind of "expense" whatsoever to 95% of the American public? This is fallacious socialist thinking at its finest: thinking you're entitled to someone else's money, and feeling robbed when you don't receive something for nothing.
As for American businesses moving overseas, you can mainly thank NAFTA and GATT and WTO treaties for that. Our own globalist government (whether Dems or GOP) has been actively encouraging our own deindustrialization for decades - that it has come to pass is not an accident.
| Quote: |
| Right now, the biggest thing in the US is housing and healthcare; the housing bubble has burst, causing many to lose their homes in the process. Then healthcare is practically unattainable for many in the lower class. |
Both problems caused by government regulation in the first place. Get the government out of the free market altogether (as well as abolishing the Federal Reserve) and all these problems will work themselves out, without a doubt. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| stephorama wrote: |
| No really, I was excited when I saw the thread title! I thought this was going to be about Bush! You know, deliberately lying and misleading the country into a very costly (lives, body parts, money) war could arguably bring impeachment proceedings. |
That's no big deal. A least he didn't lie about getting a hummer.
| The Urban Myth wrote: |
| What about Clinton and Lewinsky? He never went to court yet he could have been impeached if it had been proven he lied. |
Clinton WAS impeached, although not convicted. |
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