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Chinese has no problem with a democratic united Korea
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decolyon



Joined: 24 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

China is warming to the idea of having a unified Korea. They see that having a buffer state is less important that having a country of nearly a hundred million that guy buy cheap Chinese goods by the truck loads. Also, if Seoul was the capital and government seat, there would be little reason to have 30 thousand U.S. military here. The reason the Chinese wanted a buffer state was because there were so many military. Without the military, no need for a buffer state.

While the Chinese are coming around to it, the South Korean population on the whole isn't wild about the idea. You can't blame them really. They spent the last generation building a pretty nice place for themselves and with a rushed reunification like Germany saw, it could bring the whole show to a stop and there'd likely be an economic "step back" as it were.

Christopher Hill, who was the lead US negotiator here and spent several years in Korea wrote how it might happen. First, a UN government would rush into Pyeongyang and try to salvage any kind of infrastructure they could within the government. A quick regime change and government restructuring like in Iraq is not the goal. China would be asked (or eventually paid) to secure all the nuclear material. They know what and where the NoKo's have it and heck, probably helped them get it in the first place. The Chinese have the ability to round the stuff up and dispose of it properly. It may take the UN paying them outrageously to do it, but lose nukes is just as big of a problem for them as it is everyone else. Once the government is stable and the weapons are locked up, then you'd see a gradual reunification, province by province. The borer would stay up for several years. They would literally take it one province at a time. Assessing the infrastructure and population. Gradually introducing a new currency and representative democratic principals to a town. You might see something like one province every 6 months or so become part of the "South" Korean system. All the old heads of the military would be paid to retire and they'd promote up democratic officers from the North to take command. They don't want any generals going rogue. But they wont be pursing anybody for war crimes like we did the Nazis. It'll be more like the Taliban. Paying them to be our friends until they die off.

There goals would be to go dead slow reunifying. The border provinces will be the last ones in the club. It would probably take 10 or 15 years from the time the nukes are secured to the time the country is whole again. Within a generation after that, Northern cities will look similar, maybe even bigger and newer than Southern ones. And then the game changes totally. A unified Korea would rival Japan for economic and military power in the region. With Japan's expected recovery in the next few decades, East Asia will be the power house economic region in the world. Without major reforms in the West, the next century really will belong to them. With China, New Korea, and Japan all working together, an East Asian Union would effectively balance out the EU and the inevitable North American Union. And there you'd have it folks. A New World Order ruled by the economic blocks of the Northern Hemisphere. It could all happen by the time most of us here are old folks. It would be amazing to see. These really are exciting times to live in.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of a NE Asian economic union. With NATO, NAFTA, and the NE Asian Union, might we see a return of the Soviet Union, minus the Communism?

Quote:
China will always be directly opposed to USA, Japan and South Korea in any arena. They have always been natural competitors ...and threats.


Why?

Could not one person say the same thing about England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and The Netherlands? Yet the idea of war amongst any of them is laughable now.

EDIT- Below- Woah! I actually agree with Junior.

Maybe that World War III thing is about to happen....


Last edited by Steelrails on Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

decolyon wrote:
First, a UN government would rush into Pyeongyang and try to salvage any kind of infrastructure they could within the government.


How exactly would a UN government "rush in"? Disguise themselves as washer-women and climb through the window at midnight?

Quote:
A unified Korea would rival Japan for economic and military power in the region.


Yep.
Even if reunification came via war and seoul got demolished in the process, the country would be back on its feet within 5 years, restored its infrastructure within 10, have concreted over the north with factories after 15, and challenging Japan within 25 years.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

decolyon wrote:
With Japan's expected recovery in the next few decades,

What makes you think Japan will recover? Considering economic growth in Japan for the last 20 years has been almost flat.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
decolyon wrote:
With Japan's expected recovery in the next few decades,

What makes you think Japan will recover? Considering economic growth in Japan for the last 20 years has been almost flat.


I don't think Japan has really fallen off. It has low unemployment and a high standard of living.

It's just not roaring. But you can't always run at full steam.

I wish our recessions went as well as Japan's has.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

decolyon wrote:
With China, New Korea, and Japan all working together, an East Asian Union would effectively balance out the EU and the inevitable North American Union.


Even ignoring historical conflicts (as the EU is trying to do) I see no reason for China to "work together" with anyone. They've had one hell of a party having direct control of their own currency.

Japan would probably receive the most benefit, as it would provide greater access to Chinese consumer markets AND secure badly needed imports of natural resources.

And honestly, if geopolitical experts in the US expected your fairytale to actually play out, they would discourage Korean reunification.
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Yaya



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing strikes me: would China want yet another export competitor (South Korea) who could use cheap labor in a country (North Korea) whose people are starving?

Another thing for thought is that most South Koreans don't want reunification and the big expense it will bring. Just imagine if millions of starving North Koreans start trying to cross the DMZ.

The price tag will be $2 trillion to $5 trillion over 30 years, says Peter Beck, a senior fellow with the Atlantic Council in Washington. A South Korean presidential committee puts it between $322 billion to $2.1 trillion, but come on. The costs of German reunification -- about $2 trillion and counting -- suggest even $5 trillion is optimistic.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-01/buyers-pass-up-5-trillion-bargain-of-future-commentary-by-william-pesek.html
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legrande



Joined: 23 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another thing for thought is that most South Koreans don't want reunification and the big expense it will bring. Just imagine if millions of starving North Koreans start trying to cross the DMZ.


It may be that certain news sources are claiming that "most Koreans don't want it".

The outpouring of genuine sentiment that occured when Kim Dae Jung was trying to get the deed done would suggest otherwise.

For a lot of Koreans, this is an issue which transcends money.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

travel zen wrote:
Such wishful thinking Laughing Laughing Laughing

Reunification within 5 years ? China 'giving up' on North Korea? Wow. Optimists.

China will always be directly opposed to USA, Japan and South Korea in any arena. They have always been natural competitors ...and threats.

China will always be the big, bad evil in the East. North Korea is just making China look good, but.... who pulls the strings? Who saved the regime from being wiped out? Who made the demarcation line? Who spilled so much blood just to keep a buffer zone ???

China is in it deep, and wont let go of their puppet state without a fight.


North Korea isn't worth fighting for, at least as far as the chinese are probably concerned. Why would the chinese risk having thier entire infrastructure destroyed by a foolish war with the US over North Korea.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yaya wrote:

Another thing for thought is that most South Koreans don't want reunification and the big expense it will bring. Just imagine if millions of starving North Koreans start trying to cross the DMZ.


I can't remember how official the source was, but I do recall hearing that the the quick reunification model of Berlin is NOT the plan. If the North came under the governmental jurisdiction of Seoul, things would change very, very slowly. The DMZ would stay locked down while the areas north were gradually developed and rehabilitated.

As to China's opinion... It's always in a nation's interest to be surrounded by inferior, supplicant states rather than by well-financed bastions of ideological opposition. Just ask Russia...
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Yaya



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

legrande wrote:
Quote:
Another thing for thought is that most South Koreans don't want reunification and the big expense it will bring. Just imagine if millions of starving North Koreans start trying to cross the DMZ.


It may be that certain news sources are claiming that "most Koreans don't want it".

The outpouring of genuine sentiment that occured when Kim Dae Jung was trying to get the deed done would suggest otherwise.

For a lot of Koreans, this is an issue which transcends money.


And your opinion is better than polls? Think about the higher taxes South Koreans will have to pay if their country absorbs the North. It's very naive to believe some flowery language of "Korea is one, blah blah blah" and then have Seoul announce a drastic hike in taxes to fund reunification.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:

As to China's opinion... It's always in a nation's interest to be surrounded by inferior, supplicant states rather than by well-financed bastions of ideological opposition. Just ask Russia...


This is the 21st century, not the 1850s. It's in a nation's interest to be surrounded by good trading partners with open markets which require little law enforcement or military concern.

I always love in these threads everyone acts like its still the era of 1648-1991. Total Wars. Buffer States between Great Powers. How many tanks do you have?

It's a new era.
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ThingsComeAround



Joined: 07 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Chinese have no problems with doing the opposite of what the world expects
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Panda



Joined: 25 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
comm wrote:

As to China's opinion... It's always in a nation's interest to be surrounded by inferior, supplicant states rather than by well-financed bastions of ideological opposition. Just ask Russia...


This is the 21st century, not the 1850s. It's in a nation's interest to be surrounded by good trading partners with open markets which require little law enforcement or military concern.

I always love in these threads everyone acts like its still the era of 1648-1991. Total Wars. Buffer States between Great Powers. How many tanks do you have?

It's a new era.

+++++1



I have been checking this thread but not made comments. Some posters were fair enough, but a few felt like they just came out from a bad 007 movie, they thought they were smart, but all they knew was like information from 1970's.

Also their comments mostly contain mysterious nothing but somthing just like:

China will always be the big, bad evil in the east or The Chinese have no problem with doing the opposite of what the world expects.

I wonder why they bothered posting anything without any actual meaning or persuasiveness to just make themselves look not very clever.
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legrande



Joined: 23 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yaya wrote:

Quote:
And your opinion is better than polls? Think about the higher taxes South Koreans will have to pay if their country absorbs the North. It's very naive to believe some flowery language of "Korea is one, blah blah blah" and then have Seoul announce a drastic hike in taxes to fund reunification.


Oh yes, you're right, polls are always the real indicator of public sentiment, never mind that they're cleverly conducted and created by people whose aim is to influence public opinion for their own gain.

But your statement exposes the fact that you know little about the people with the money and influence in ROK, and how they'd be called out for everything from extortion, torture and murder on a massive scale if there was unification.

More telling is your referal to unification as "Korea is one, blah blah blah"-
it's the type of statement made by someone who's never been confided in or had many conversations of substance with a Korean, they probably size you up and realize there's no point. To deal with the central dilemna of the peninsula, one which has taken and affected so many lives with such a callow, irreverant attitude really says it all.

Well, at least you've still got your goony avatar, it'll still score score points with the geeksters.
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