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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:50 am Post subject: |
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The school is a pretty big part of it... and the location.
I think liking kids can work against you, actually... because sometimes it's not really that and is more like 'I have a weakness for children'. Teaching is just a job, really... there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Some people think they'll love it because they get to have amusing little creatures around them saying cute things that make them laugh... or because they themselves are children (or long to be again).
Bad teachers place too much emphasis on whether the kids like them or not, or would rather have the kids like them than the rest of the staff... stuff like that. That's when you're not really a teacher, you're more like an older brother/sister or funny uncle or something. ESL in Korea is actually sort of like being the fun uncle, actually... because you're sort of expected to be endlessly patient and endlessly amusing and ever-so-happy and stuff (well, not so much in the good schools)... but it shouldn't be.
I think you sort of need to maintain a sense of detachment, stay focused on what's important and what you have to do, and be able to think of a good way to do it. It's not really about you, it's more about them and how well you can identify and respond to their educational needs... and really, you can do that as long as you work hard and you're willing to listen. It's pretty impossible to do that for each and every student, but with a little common sense-- and better yet a sense of weak areas and strong areas (collecting and marking their work helps with this)-- then you can sort of attack the areas that need to be attacked, as opposed to just playing games because the kids like them.
The only issue I have in Korea is that it isn't really about learning English, and is almost one hundred percent about passing the test... and the schools/other English teachers reinforce this notion 100 percent-- yet our job is to actually teach them English. This makes no sense to me! |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Being an extrovert does help (in some teaching situations).
I was told by many people in Korea that I was "too quiet" . ( by students as well as employers)
My TESOL training stressed the idea that good teachers should get the students to talk and not the other way around.
But it seems in Korea that they prefer to have motor-mouth teachers so students can sit back and pretend to be paying attention. |
Interesting point. What type of school did you teach in?
Would there be any difference in expectation between public or private? |
I've taught in Elementary schools and in hagwons (both adult and children). Without exception, I've found the demand to be that they want a very talkative "active" teacher, especially lower level adults.
They expect to sit back and listen and be able to just soak in English. As soon as I started trying to get them to answer questions and actually interact with me, that's when the trouble started and then complaints to the boss...whoooooo dooggie.
The PS system, well a lot depends on your school and your co-teacher.
I only had two out of 9 that I felt would allow me to teach. They were the only 2 that discussed lessons with me and allowed me to plan around what they were doing.
The rest expected me to stand back and follow them while they nattered away in Korean. Then they expected me to be able to read their minds, know exactly what they were doing and be able to jump right in. |
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zappadelta
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| You must be fine, thank you, and you? |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
That being said, things in the industry change quickly. I get a lot of people who are really dismayed about the visa process because when their older sister went to Korea 3 years ago she didn't have to get an FBI check. I get a lot of people who have a BA and are really upset because they find out that EPIK won't consider them for the SMOE unless they have TESL/TEFL. They tell me that their friend taught through the SMOE two years ago and didn't need it. A lot of people get advice that is...well..dated in a lot of ways.
I left South Korea in 2006. In 4 years, especially since the economy took a dive, the industry has changed. It isn't just the industry - I probably wouldn't even recognize my old neighborhood when you think of how quickly the face of a city in Asia (especially China) can change. It made me think that maybe what I know about the industry, in many ways, is rooted in 2006. I learn a lot more about the macro aspects of the industry being part of the business, but it has been almost 5 years since I taught there. Maybe my assumptions about teachers, schools, and the nuances of what it is like to be an ESL teacher are too firmly rooted in my own experience, and year by year, become more inaccurate.
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You know what else has changed over the last 10 years? (And this too probably plays a part in why some teachers don't make it here.) There weren't as many recruiters back then either.
Nowadays it's hard to find a job posting directly from a school. The job boards are flooded by ads from parasitic agencies that add a middle man into the whole process. In addition to limiting the flow of info between schools and teachers they often mis-represent both. Teachers come here with the great expectation that these recruiters give them. "Hey. You can trust me. I've been doing this for years. I know what I'm doing."). Schools have great expectations of the teachers because the recruiters exaggerate the ability of the teachers. Neither is happy with what they got. The only person who is happy with the outcome is the recruiter, back in his office counting up the money that the school paid him to. Let's face it, recruiters don't care what type of teachers are likely to be good at teaching. They don't even care if the teacher will benefit the school (unless it's a big school and/or likely to need the recruiter's services again). They certainly don't care about what kind of experience the teachers will have at the school. I find it laughable that a recruiter would actually ask "What make a teacher good?"
OP, why are you even asking? Are you going to be more selective based on what we tell you? Are you going to try to improve the work and living environment for the teachers to raise their potential? Based on what we tell you, are you going to refuse to recruit for certain schools, or to send them certain teachers if you don't think the teachers and school are well matched? Can you honestly say that if you only had one teacher apply to you and you had 3 schools looking for a teacher, you'd refuse to recommend that teacher to any of the schools if you didn't think it would be a good match? If you didn't think that the teacher would be a good teacher in those schools?
The "honest recruiter" is a rare breed indeed. Even more so than the "honest hogwon owner". And save us the "Oh. But I'm the exception to the rule. I'm totally honest because I too use to be a teacher. I know where you're all coming from because I've been there too. I'd never shaft one of my fellow teachers." speech. I'm sure most of us have heard it before. The only person you're fooling is the noob who can't recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing. If you want to get more job applicants, then go back to the job board and make another posting there. Try drowning out the postings from real employers. You guys are very good at that. Here's not the place to be recruiting.
Last edited by Troglodyte on Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| zappadelta wrote: |
| You must be fine, thank you, and you? |
 ? |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
That being said, things in the industry change quickly. I get a lot of people who are really dismayed about the visa process because when their older sister went to Korea 3 years ago she didn't have to get an FBI check. I get a lot of people who have a BA and are really upset because they find out that EPIK won't consider them for the SMOE unless they have TESL/TEFL. They tell me that their friend taught through the SMOE two years ago and didn't need it. A lot of people get advice that is...well..dated in a lot of ways.
I left South Korea in 2006. In 4 years, especially since the economy took a dive, the industry has changed. It isn't just the industry - I probably wouldn't even recognize my old neighborhood when you think of how quickly the face of a city in Asia (especially China) can change. It made me think that maybe what I know about the industry, in many ways, is rooted in 2006. I learn a lot more about the macro aspects of the industry being part of the business, but it has been almost 5 years since I taught there. Maybe my assumptions about teachers, schools, and the nuances of what it is like to be an ESL teacher are too firmly rooted in my own experience, and year by year, become more inaccurate.
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You know what else has changed over the last 10 years? And this probably plays a part in why some teachers don't make it here.
There weren't as many recruiters back then either. Nowadays it's hard to find a job posting directly from a school. The job boards are flooded by ads from parasitic agencies that add a middle man into the whole process. In addition to limiting the flow of info between schools and teachers they often mis-represent both. Teachers come here with the great expectation that these recruiters give them. "Hey. You can trust me. I've been doing this for years. I know what I'm doing."). Schools have great expectations of the teachers because the recruiters exaggerate the ability of the teachers. Neither is happy with what they got. The only person who is happy with the outcome is the recruiter, back in his office counting up the money that the school paid him to. Let's face it, recruiters don't care what type of teachers are likely to be good at teaching. They don't even care if the teacher will benefit the school (unless it's a big school and/or likely to need the recruiter's services again). They certainly don't care about what kind of experience the teachers will have at the school. I find it laughable that a recruiter would actually ask "What make a teacher good?"
OP, why are you even asking? Are you going to be more selective based on what we tell you? Are you going to try to improve the work and living environment for the teachers to raise their potential? Based on what we tell you, are you going to refuse to recruit for certain schools, or to send them certain teachers if you don't think the teachers and school are well matched? Can you honestly say that if you only had one teacher apply to you and you had 3 schools looking for a teacher, you'd refuse to recommend that teacher to any of the schools if you didn't think it would be a good match? If you didn't think that the teacher would be a good teacher in those schools?
The "honest recruiter" is a rare breed indeed. Even more so than the "honest hogwon owner". And save us the "Oh. But I'm the exception to the rule. I'm totally honest because I too use to be a teacher. I know where you're all coming from because I've been there too. I'd never shaft one of my fellow teachers." speech. I'm sure most of us have heard it before. The only person you're fooling is the noob who can't recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing. If you want to get more job applicants, then go back to the job board and make another posting there. Try drowning out the postings from real employers. You guys are very good at that. Here's not the place to be recruiting. |
OK. I don't share your opinion (I don't think you expect me to), but I do respect your position.
Let's just say you're right, and let's say that recruiters bear the bulk of the responsibility for the woes of the ESL Industry. They aren't going anywhere, and I think we can all agree on that.
What can we do moving forward?
-Will at Footprints |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Something else I just thought of that would have helped ...
Computer skills.....
I'm not the best with computers (kind of a computer idiot actually) and it would have made my life a whole lot simpler if I had been able to create my own power-points and things.
Not so much in the hagwans, but certainly in the Public school system.
As for what makes a good teacher, you will get as many opinions on that as there are posters on this board. It depends on the teaching situation, class size, age, and many other factors. What might be considered good in one context would be lousy in another.
A thick skin and a positive attitude certainly would be good because the cultural differences do tend to grate on people after a while.
Hope this helps. |
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languistic
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
OK. I don't share your opinion (I don't think you expect me to), but I do respect your position.
Let's just say you're right, and let's say that recruiters bear the bulk of the responsibility for the woes of the ESL Industry. They aren't going anywhere, and I think we can all agree on that.
What can we do moving forward?
-Will at Footprints |
"They"?
Well, to move forward from the position that it is the parasitic recruiters are killing the industry would require an exterminator.
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| languistic wrote: |
| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
OK. I don't share your opinion (I don't think you expect me to), but I do respect your position.
Let's just say you're right, and let's say that recruiters bear the bulk of the responsibility for the woes of the ESL Industry. They aren't going anywhere, and I think we can all agree on that.
What can we do moving forward?
-Will at Footprints |
"They"?
Well, to move forward from the position that it is the parasitic recruiters are killing the industry would require an exterminator.
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Good one.
But then what would "we" have to talk about?
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languistic
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| languistic wrote: |
| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
OK. I don't share your opinion (I don't think you expect me to), but I do respect your position.
Let's just say you're right, and let's say that recruiters bear the bulk of the responsibility for the woes of the ESL Industry. They aren't going anywhere, and I think we can all agree on that.
What can we do moving forward?
-Will at Footprints |
"They"?
Well, to move forward from the position that it is the parasitic recruiters are killing the industry would require an exterminator.
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Good one.
But then what would "we" have to talk about?
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Something to which the answers weren't so obvious.
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| languistic wrote: |
Something to which the answers weren't so obvious.
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Great - so what would be an accurate picture of what being a teacher is really like? Knowing what you know from experience - what would you say to paint an accurate picture of life as an ESL teacher to a newbie? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Will, sorry but I have to agree with Trog.
Also 2 years teaching experience in Korea is nothing.
You are trying to make your job better.
Thats a good aim, but:
You cant do it. Too many issues to consider.
I would love to say that if you think hard enough but I would be wrong.
Plus only ask people who have been in Korea over 3 yrs and are currently here. Korea is changing. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
Hey Will, sorry but I have to agree with Trog.
Also 2 years teaching experience in Korea is nothing.
You are trying to make your job better.
Thats a good aim, but:
You cant do it. Too many issues to consider.
I would love to say that if you think hard enough but I would be wrong.
Plus only ask people who have been in Korea over 3 yrs and are currently here. Korea is changing. |
I appreciate it. 2 years abroad is nothing, but at the same time, wouldn't 10 years abroad make you lose sight as well? I mean, I don't really remember what it was like to be new at my job three years ago. You lose sight of things.
So really, I should be getting advice from everyone. The vets, and the newbies. The employers, and the teachers, and yes - the recruiters as well.
And I'm well aware of the issues, and I can see why many of you would think of this as too big of an issue, or too big of a problem. I'm not proposing that this will fix the industry because it certainly won't. But if it helps a little, then it helps a little - right?
Plus, you guys are, I'm assuming, teachers. You get up in the morning and you teach all day and come home. I can see why this issue would be too big to fit into your life, but my job is to make sure the right people find the right jobs. I get paid to concentrate these problems.
But I can't do it on my own. I can't make up another 8 or 18 years of experience, I can't make up the knowledge that an Masters of TESOL provides, or go back and think of life as a newbie.
What I do know is where I can go to get that knowledge: Dave's ESL Cafe.
Yet I'll freely admit that I'm getting discouraged, and it isn't the enormity of the problem - it is the lack of support. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Fair points.
Though your lack of support isnt because we dont want you to win.
Its mainly because we say whats real and happening today. It doesn't correspond with the info you want.
We cant change that.
It would be nice to sell you a story, but the reality is different. It is the daily grind, it is the different issues regarding each job.
In all the years I have been here - I have never once told some else that they should come here.
The reason is that each person is unique and I dont know how they will handle Korea. Korea is an experience unique for each person.
You cant find the right person unless you seek the people who have been here before and lived more than 3 years.
Therefore the right person for the job is some one who has ben here before and wants to return.
My area - I met 6 teachers. 1 stayed 3 yrs , the rest left after 1 yr because they dont like it here. Who is a good teacher for the job? |
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languistic
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| languistic wrote: |
Something to which the answers weren't so obvious.
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Great - so what would be an accurate picture of what being a teacher is really like? Knowing what you know from experience - what would you say to paint an accurate picture of life as an ESL teacher to a newbie? |
I was just pulling your chain. I have a friend who is a recruiter and he works hard for his customers. I am sure you do as well.
Regarding the actual topic, it is too broad to say in a single post, even a single conversation. ddeubel has a link up earlier that I endorse as a good place to start a dialogue. If you were to unpack each point in his list, I think you would touch on most of the tangible things. This is the wrong place to ask that stuff to be unpacked though and I don't blame you for being discouraged by what you get back from this forum. Check the posts; teaching is rarely discussed here, just stuff related to being in Korea. There is a good reason for that as well. |
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