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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| You clearly misunderstand the whole point of comparing suicide per capita rates. If nation A has a higher suicide per capita rate compared to nation B, then that means a randomly selected person in nation A is more likely to commit suicide compared to a randomly select person from nation B. This is just simple statistics. |
You are just preaching stats you see on the internet as if they are verses from the bible (not that that is something to be proud of either). Neither could be more meaningless. Have you looked at where the numbers are coming from?
Show me EXACTLY how those numbers reflect one person deciding to kill themself.
| Quote: |
| Rather, this is a statement of simple facts which should be discussed in order for this problem to be further addressed. |
How many people from those stats committed suicide alone? All you have is a total amount, it is MEANINGLESS. It misrepresents what is really happening.
Someone already alluded to failing test scores as a reason for suicide. It has nothing to do with an individual for example in a depressed state without this THIRD VARIABLE affecting them.
Use some common sense. Both Koreans and Japanese answer to an authority figure, they have a language all set up for that. If they are told to bark, they bark. If they are told to jump, they jump. There is very little room for individual decisions. So, NO, I do not believe the suicide rate is higher in Korea. The higher numbers are a symptom of a third variable.
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| Also, I do not see how group suicides lessens the severity of the problem |
I never said the severity of the problem is lessened. I simply don't think it is suicide. A suicide is an individual taking their own life, and a wall at a subway station is not going to stop them.
This problem is more a social issue, specifically obedience to some authority figure. People are grouped somehow, by the internet, a club, etc... and they are followers.
In this case, you cannot look at suicide rates to determine if they have the highest rates or not. Maybe look at soldiers going to war, smokers who die from lung cancer, etc...
Even though those are ambiguous stats, they are closer to the truth when compared to a group of Koreans who agree to die, even though they never individually decided to do this action until "commanded" to.
Suicide and group actions are 2 VERY DIFFERENT things. While a suicide often wakes up the group, a group action disrupts a society as a whole. You being disrupted by this action from the group is a societal concern, not an individual concern. I know I didn't state it clearly here, but I think I have explained it already that the decision to kill yourself rests in only one person. I don't think that the astronauts who have died during missions, to or from, planned on killing themselves. They took part in a group event, and unfortunately they died.
It's quite possible a Korean group likewise didn't all know they would die, some leader makes jokes about jumping, whatever, and slowly people didn't think for themselves before it was too late. Maybe they said, OMG, what in the world are we doing!!! How do you know they individually planned to kill themselves? You don't know.
Supposedly, some of the 911 suicide bombers didn't know they would die either. They just thought they would hijack some passengers. However, the pilots were the only ones that knew. In order to see the mission accomplished, you can't tell everyone.
My question to you then is, if there are no stats you can present me to show individual decisions to commit suicide, then why didn't some of them chicken out and not go through with it? Apparently, something was strong enough to kill them all. It wasn't their mind telling them to do this, it was being commanded to jump when told to jump. |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
The real reason for the subway platforms are economic. Subway stoppages due to suicides cost thousands if not millions of dollars per day. It makes Economic as well as safety sense.
They make more economic sense in Korea because of the higer rate of suicides by subway. Go figure.
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This is what I'd assumed too. The walls on the subway platforms aren't to prevent people from killing themselves, just to prevent them from killing themselves by jumping in front of a train. So inconvenient!
Here is an article that seems puzzled by the ineffectiveness of screens for preventing suicide in general: http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2011/03/08/fewer-seoul-subway-suicides-stirs-debate/
Last edited by Draz on Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreatimes is starting to impress me. If he's just a waeg pretending to sound Korean, somebody give him a gold medal in trolling! |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| bekinseki wrote: |
I know a girl who suffered when one of her male classmates committed suicide in high school. Everyone was mad at her because htey knew the dead guy had a crush on her. Even ten years after, her former classmates treated her poorly because of that.
Oh, and this guy was found with his girlfriend's body, and nobody's sure if it was a suicide pact or a murder-suicide. |
Well, that's a bunch of BS! What is she suppose to do? Fall in love with him so he doesn't kill himself? Maybe instead of killing himself, he should just get on with his life. Korea is the land of intense social pressure. We dont always see it because we're foriegn. But in Korean, they always pressure each other to conform. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have an opinion on suicide.......just want to say that was a truly horrible song and video. Even by K-pop standards.
Brings me back to the big long cinematic music videos which were in vogue here about 10 years ago........usually to the soundtrack of a never ending love ballad.....they were bad. But funny-bad in the way that they tried to be ever more tragic than the last one. With hilarious results.....from my POV. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreatimes is starting to impress me. If he's just a waeg pretending to sound Korean, somebody give him a gold medal in trolling! |
Comments like that are evidence you are agenda driven. You can't substantiate your position with information. Instead you attack those that refute you and put your argument to waste.
By all means, build more walls, prevent more music videos from being made. Let's see if that really lowers your high "suicide rate" antics. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You clearly misunderstand the whole point of comparing suicide per capita rates. If nation A has a higher suicide per capita rate compared to nation B, then that means a randomly selected person in nation A is more likely to commit suicide compared to a randomly select person from nation B. This is just simple statistics. |
You are just preaching stats you see on the internet as if they are verses from the bible (not that that is something to be proud of either). Neither could be more meaningless. Have you looked at where the numbers are coming from?
Show me EXACTLY how those numbers reflect one person deciding to kill themself.
| Quote: |
| Rather, this is a statement of simple facts which should be discussed in order for this problem to be further addressed. |
How many people from those stats committed suicide alone? All you have is a total amount, it is MEANINGLESS. It misrepresents what is really happening.
Someone already alluded to failing test scores as a reason for suicide. It has nothing to do with an individual for example in a depressed state without this THIRD VARIABLE affecting them.
Use some common sense. Both Koreans and Japanese answer to an authority figure, they have a language all set up for that. If they are told to bark, they bark. If they are told to jump, they jump. There is very little room for individual decisions. So, NO, I do not believe the suicide rate is higher in Korea. The higher numbers are a symptom of a third variable.
| Quote: |
| Also, I do not see how group suicides lessens the severity of the problem |
I never said the severity of the problem is lessened. I simply don't think it is suicide. A suicide is an individual taking their own life, and a wall at a subway station is not going to stop them.
This problem is more a social issue, specifically obedience to some authority figure. People are grouped somehow, by the internet, a club, etc... and they are followers.
In this case, you cannot look at suicide rates to determine if they have the highest rates or not. Maybe look at soldiers going to war, smokers who die from lung cancer, etc...
Even though those are ambiguous stats, they are closer to the truth when compared to a group of Koreans who agree to die, even though they never individually decided to do this action until "commanded" to.
Suicide and group actions are 2 VERY DIFFERENT things. While a suicide often wakes up the group, a group action disrupts a society as a whole. You being disrupted by this action from the group is a societal concern, not an individual concern. I know I didn't state it clearly here, but I think I have explained it already that the decision to kill yourself rests in only one person. I don't think that the astronauts who have died during missions, to or from, planned on killing themselves. They took part in a group event, and unfortunately they died.
It's quite possible a Korean group likewise didn't all know they would die, some leader makes jokes about jumping, whatever, and slowly people didn't think for themselves before it was too late. Maybe they said, OMG, what in the world are we doing!!! How do you know they individually planned to kill themselves? You don't know.
Supposedly, some of the 911 suicide bombers didn't know they would die either. They just thought they would hijack some passengers. However, the pilots were the only ones that knew. In order to see the mission accomplished, you can't tell everyone.
My question to you then is, if there are no stats you can present me to show individual decisions to commit suicide, then why didn't some of them chicken out and not go through with it? Apparently, something was strong enough to kill them all. It wasn't their mind telling them to do this, it was being commanded to jump when told to jump. |
Whether you commit suicide in a group or alone doesn't change the fact that you've committed suicide and has no bearing on the number of suicides.
Who's commanding you to post on this forum? Take me to your leader! |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Koreatimes,
Let's consider the whole idea and meaning of mathematical probability which is based on logic as opposed to the bible.
Now, you suppose that have a variety of very large bags containing marbles. Further, in a bag labeled K, suppose that that 31 per 100,000 of those marbles are red. Hence, the probability of selecting a red marble from bag K is (31/100,000)x100% which is 0.031%.
Also, in another bag labeled J, we are told that 24.6 per 100,000 of those marbles are red. As a result, the probability of selecting a red marble from bag J is (24.6/100,000)x100% which is 0.0246%
Of course, it follows that one is roughly 1.26 times more likely to find a red marble in bag K than in bag J. This is true regardless of whether bag J has more marbles than bag K or even if some of the red marbles in bag K are clustered together.
Last edited by Konglishman on Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Whether you commit suicide in a group or alone doesn't change the fact that you've committed suicide and has no bearing on the number of suicides. |
Are you really that naive that you think everyone does what everyone WANTS, FEELS, or RECOGNIZES they need to do? What about these terms: "peer pressure", "go with the flow", "When in Rome, do as the Romans", "look cool", OH HOW ABOUT THE EVERLASTING ONE......
P O P U L A R
If everyone thought for themselves, they wouldn't vote, they wouldn't get married, and they definitely wouldn't off themselves at the same rate as being asserted.
| Quote: |
| Who's commanding you to post on this forum? Take me to your leader! |
That is supposed to convince me that me posting on my own accord proves people commit suicide on their own accord? What about drugs? That could never have a bad influence? What about alcohol and drugs?
Read up, learn. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| This is true regardless of whether bag J has more marbles than bag K or even if some of the red marbles in bag K are clustered together. |
Correlation does not imply causation. Read up, logical fallacies.
Killing yourself in a group does NOT mean you hate yourself, it means you are following orders. This would in turn make the data used in analysis useless. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| This is true regardless of whether bag J has more marbles than bag K or even if some of the red marbles in bag K are clustered together. |
Correlation does not imply causation. Read up, logical fallacies.
Killing yourself in a group does NOT mean you hate yourself, it means you are following orders. This would in turn make the data used in analysis useless. |
I never said anything about causation. Think of it this way. Two people decide to go on vacation during the year that statistics were compiled. One person person goes to Korea and the other goes to Japan. Both tourists are randomly parachuted out of planes and land in random places in Korea and Japan respectively. This is done in order to insure that who they meet will truly be random. Now, ask yourself based on the probability just discussed earlier, in which country is the first person met by the given tourist, most likely to commit suicide.
Actually, I think you are far too prejudiced against the individuality of Koreans. Koreans who want to commit suicide in groups, must take the initiative to seek each other out.
Last edited by Konglishman on Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| This is true regardless of whether bag J has more marbles than bag K or even if some of the red marbles in bag K are clustered together. |
Correlation does not imply causation. Read up, logical fallacies.
Killing yourself in a group does NOT mean you hate yourself, it means you are following orders. This would in turn make the data used in analysis useless. |
Even if people were mindlessly following orders to commit suicide, which is not what is happening, there is still going to be consistent mathematical correlations which will allow one to describe the suicide rate if say you wanted to try to make a prediction on what the suicide rate might be the following year. And of course, this has no bearing on how the actual suicide rate is calculated from data for a given year. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Koreatimes is starting to impress me. If he's just a waeg pretending to sound Korean, somebody give him a gold medal in trolling! |
Comments like that are evidence you are agenda driven. You can't substantiate your position with information. Instead you attack those that refute you and put your argument to waste.
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You haven't addressed this yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_suicide_rate
What's your agenda anyway? Pro-Korean suicide? Anti-statistics?
| koreatimes wrote: |
By all means, build more walls, prevent more music videos from being made. Let's see if that really lowers your high "suicide rate" antics. |
As much as I'd love to see an end to K-pop music videos, those things aren't enough to combat the abnormally high suicide rate. What needs to be addressed is the underlying attitude toward suicide in Korea, which enables and tacitly approves of it. Removing this horrible trope of suicide in music videos is a start, but it needs to be culture-wide. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| You haven't addressed this yet. |
That's pretty much the whole basis of my argument.
Can you prove the suicides were ALL individual? They were not influenced from a group act or leader?
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| What's your agenda anyway? Pro-Korean suicide? Anti-statistics? |
My agenda is truth, what is yours? Read an article or something written in a popular magazine and pass it off as truth without analyzing it yourself.
Ironically, some people commit suicide because they do the same, meaning they DON'T DISCERN for themselves. they take what others say as gospel and SPEW SPEW SPEW.
You are doing a great job of that.
| Quote: |
| underlying attitude toward suicide in Korea |
It's not suicide. It is obedience to some group, like voting for a leader/president to tell you how to run your life. The feeling to connect. Until you understand this basic principle, you won't understand the bias the suicide data points represent.
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| Removing this horrible trope of suicide in music videos is a start, but it needs to be culture-wide. |
WELL WELL WELL. What do we have here? Suicide is NOT worldwide, it is only between an individual and themself. One person outside of the culture. Now you are seeing it.
It is NOT suicide. It is the culture, a societal issue. |
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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| bekinseki wrote: |
| Suicide is the noblest thing you can do, according to Korean pop culture. |
Its also seen as the ultimate revenge.
| Draz wrote: |
| I don't think it is seen as noble. It's not really about the girl at all. It's pushing the idea that you are responsible for other people's feelings. |
Right, relationships here tend to be based on dependence, be it emotional or financial IMHO |
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