|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:32 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| cfile2 wrote: |
As for Steel Rails, yes I tried to contact the owner more than once. I spent an entire week calling that place EVERYDAY. There was no shoddy journalism here. And I even remained transparent when I quoted the receptionist. I specifically stated that I couldn't get the owner on the phone and thus, her words need to be taken with a grain of salt.
You need to take in the story as a whole, not the first three paragraphs and then draw conclusions about what I am like as a journalist.
The point is, regardless of whether Brian was drunk and behaving obnoxiously, or being polite though lacking the ability to communicate, it wouldn't have mattered. He would have been refused anyways. I told his story the way I did specifically because I wanted it to sound like the stories I always here from this community - there is an emotional reaction when something like that happens and it's perfectly justifiable. But I used the rest of the article to put that kind of story in it's proper context. |
Again, did Brian's story prompt you to write the article?
Did any part of Brian's story strike you as suspicious? Did you notice any inconsistencies in his story?
And again, did you fact-check his story with the people at the jimjilbang?
And again, did you (or your translator) identify yourselves as being journalists before you interviewed the receptionist? And I have to notice, you said "made the actual call". That sounds like one call, not "repeated calls to the ownership went without comment". Could you please clarify this discrepancy?
| Quote: |
| I don't explicitly state that myself because this article isn't an opinion piece |
| Quote: |
| I told his story and you have to take it for what it is worth. |
Well, what is it?
If it's a factual report, which certainly seemed to be the tone of the article, then shouldn't there have been extensive fact-checking of his story?
| Quote: |
| And I even remained transparent when I quoted the receptionist. I specifically stated that I couldn't get the owner on the phone and thus, her words need to be taken with a grain of salt. |
Well then how can this be presented as being the official policy of the jimjilbang?
| Quote: |
| You need to take in the story as a whole, not the first three paragraphs and then draw conclusions about what I am like as a journalist. |
Well what are we supposed to do? Ignore the first three paragraphs?
| Quote: |
| I told his story the way I did specifically because I wanted it to sound like the stories I always here from this community |
Wait, so factually accuracy wasn't the main point? The main point was that you wanted the story to sound like the stories you always hear?
Yeah, darn right we have some serious questions about your journalism. Get it right. Don't throw away 80% of good with 20% of garbage.
Last edited by Steelrails on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:18 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Julius wrote: |
| theevilgenius wrote: |
| A small percentage of Korean businesses/owners are notorious for painting foreigners with the same brush. By this small percentage we will never be accepted, just tolerated and if one foreigner does something out of line or seems disrespectful to the owner or workers in the business then an all foreigner ban will occur. It's not our fault, it's the narrow mindedness of some Koreans but in time it will change, although we will probably have to go through a violent racist stage first. |
The majority of koreans still have never conversed with a foreign person- the highest percentage of any nation. Its still the hermit kingdom in many ways.
It is breaking down but there is still the old guard to contend with (ie ajosshis over the age of 40) who have had extremely little experience of the world outside korea and whose attitudes and behaviours belong somewhere in the 5th century. The moment these old dogs release their stranglehold on this society cannot come soon enough.
Personally I have been barred from one health club and two nightclubs on the basis of having non-korean dna.
The open racism doesn't bother me much but the covert stuff is a different story. |
The vast majority of Koreans haven't conversed with a foreigner?
"Ajoshis over the age of 40" the old guard who've never been outside of Korea?
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| I do not see how you can conclude that Korea has the highest percentage of ANY NATION ON EARTH of people who have not conversed with foreigners. Seriously |
Thats common knowledge to anyone who has actually lived in this country at all recently....
| GBHBusan wrote: |
5th century?
You do love hyperboles Julius! |
Actually the korean mindset has been virtually unchanged and preserved by isolation since that time. The hermit kingdom ensured nobody got in or got out. Its only within the past generation that modern infrastructure got plonked here.
Being in Korea is basically like taking a walk in jurrasic park.
| Quote: |
Centuries ago, when Korean women who had been taken to China as war prizes and forced into sexual slavery managed to return home, their communities ostracized them as tainted
In South Korea, a country repeatedly invaded and subjugated by its bigger neighbors, people�s racial outlooks have been colored by �pure-blood� nationalism as well as traditional patriarchal mores
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/world/asia/02race.html?pagewanted=all |
See any difference? No..me neither.
Korean women married to foreigners are still ostracised and regarded as tainted: koreans still talk about foreigners among themselves with the insulting prefix "nom" and korean males still try to control korean women and ensure that they do not mix with outsiders.
Even acquintances of mine have to justify to other koreans why they are seen talking to an outsider.
A friend of mine gets all kinds of grief from other koreans for hanging out with me. So much so that he pretends to have bumped into me accidentally when they ask. (He thinks I didn't understand that bit of korean )
My ex g.f. was afraid to tell her parents that she was dating a foreigner for the first 8 months I knew her. When she did her father went berserk.
Even going into a shop with my female co-worker draws attention and questions as to why she is with a foreigner.
And this is the year 2011!
| Quote: |
| That generation typically has trouble dealing with foreigners as to them its something unknown |
You're very naive about this country.
Only that generation? Are you sure?
Sounds like you need to read the accounts of travellers to korea dating back the past 100, 200 or even 400 years. Attitudes have not changed since hamel.
Korea is the stone age but with cellphones. replete with cavemen hitting women over the head and dragging them into taxis.
Last edited by Julius on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:13 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
One more thing...
| Quote: |
| I told his story the way I did |
Told his story the way I did?
So you manipulated the story?
Why couldn't the story be told the way he told it?
Is this his story or your story? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| earthquakez wrote: |
Japan is more active in its discrimination against foreigners in businesses, however. Too many hotels try to turn away or turn away foreigners on nonsensical excuses about not speaking Japanese when all the foreigner really needs to do is put down their yen on the counter in exchange for a few nights at the hotel. When you speak Japanese the excuse becomes something else.
Hotels in places such as Fukuoka used to engage in this bull%%% with foreign residents and require their passport as ID despite the fact that this had nothing to do with the law. |
I noticed that a couple of times but didn't really think much about it.
Is it because they don't want foreigners noticing their sleazy illicit sex hotels? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kimchifart
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| big_fella1 wrote: |
This is one stupid business in Busan, however the lack of action against it is unacceptable.
Whilst I am not a lawyer Korea is a signatory to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), further article 6 of the Korean Constitution states that international treaties entered into by Korea have the same effect as domestic law.
As a signatory to ICERD discrimination on the grounds of race is already against domestic law and the excuse that it is a private business doesn't change it from being illegal. |
You're almost saying that as if the law is...applied. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
"Korean women married to foreigners are still ostracised and regarded as tainted"
That's simply not true. It may have been true 25 years ago, but it certainly hasn't been the case in the last 15 years (trust me, I should know).
"koreans still talk about foreigners among themselves with the insulting prefix "nom""
Actually, "nom" is not a prefix, and in most contexts it just means "guy" (and has the same connotation).
"and korean males still try to control korean women"
Actually, it's the women who control the men here.
"and ensure that they do not mix it with outsiders."
Not the guys I know.
"Even acquintances of mine have to justify to other koreans why they are seen talking to an outsider. A friend of mine gets all kinds of grief from other koreans for so much as hanging out with me.
In the year 2011! ""
Well, if you're going to hang out with people who are ignorant (or who have ignorant friends), then you should expect ignorant reactions...and that's true everywhere, not just in Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| cfile2 wrote: |
As for Steel Rails, yes I tried to contact the owner more than once. I spent an entire week calling that place EVERYDAY. There was no shoddy journalism here. And I even remained transparent when I quoted the receptionist. I specifically stated that I couldn't get the owner on the phone and thus, her words need to be taken with a grain of salt.
You need to take in the story as a whole, not the first three paragraphs and then draw conclusions about what I am like as a journalist.
The point is, regardless of whether Brian was drunk and behaving obnoxiously, or being polite though lacking the ability to communicate, it wouldn't have mattered. He would have been refused anyways. I told his story the way I did specifically because I wanted it to sound like the stories I always here from this community - there is an emotional reaction when something like that happens and it's perfectly justifiable. But I used the rest of the article to put that kind of story in it's proper context. |
Again, did Brian's story prompt you to write the article?
Did any part of Brian's story strike you as suspicious? Did you notice any inconsistencies in his story?
And again, did you fact-check his story with the people at the jimjilbang?
And again, did you (or your translator) identify yourselves as being journalists before you interviewed the receptionist? And I have to notice, you said "made the actual call". That sounds like one call, not "repeated calls to the ownership went without comment". Could you please clarify this discrepancy?
| Quote: |
| I don't explicitly state that myself because this article isn't an opinion piece |
| Quote: |
| I told his story and you have to take it for what it is worth. |
Well, what is it?
If it's a factual report, which certainly seemed to be the tone of the article, then shouldn't there have been extensive fact-checking of his story?
| Quote: |
| And I even remained transparent when I quoted the receptionist. I specifically stated that I couldn't get the owner on the phone and thus, her words need to be taken with a grain of salt. |
Well then how can this be presented as being the official policy of the jimjilbang?
| Quote: |
| You need to take in the story as a whole, not the first three paragraphs and then draw conclusions about what I am like as a journalist. |
Well what are we supposed to do? Ignore the first three paragraphs?
| Quote: |
| I told his story the way I did specifically because I wanted it to sound like the stories I always here from this community |
Wait, so factually accuracy wasn't the main point? The main point was that you wanted the story to sound like the stories you always hear?
Yeah, darn right we have some serious questions about your journalism. Get it right. Don't throw away 80% of good with 20% of garbage. |
Steelrails,
Yes I fact checked his story. I told you, my translator placed the actual calls. I was sitting next to her and said "ask (insert question)" and then she did. Not sure where the confusion there is.
I think the way I wrote the introduction is a little confusing. Here is how it happened according to Brian:
1) He's out with friends late in Busan and realizes he's already missed the last train (he's not at the train station, he is out somewhere in Busan and recognizes he can't take a train home at this point)
2) he hops in a cab and asks the cab to take him to a jjimjilbang.
3) Taxi takes him to a jjimjilbang with an English sign, he goes in, guy says no. (here's where I think I wrote it confusingly because I worded it such that it sounds like Brain was already at the train station and then he goes to the nearest place with an english sign)
4) he goes outside, confused, and sees that the taxi driver is still there
5) asks taxi driver what the deal is, taxi driver says "this is a jjimjilbang"
6) Brain goes back in and repeats his request in broken Korean/English, is refused service, tells guy it's racist and looks for a new place to go.
I called the place and asked them if they allowed foreigners in. I told them I was calling as a representative from Yonhap. For a week I tried to get in touch with the owner, he would not make contact with me.
I fact checked this story to the best of anyone's ability. Do you think they remember a specific foreigner coming in and refusing service to them? Nope. Because they refuse service to every foreigner that ever walks into the place.
I told that part of the story in his voice, in the way it was originally told to me. That is what I meant when I said "wanted it to sound like the stories I'm always told". I think it comes off as an immediate emotional reaction. That's how I wanted it to sound. And I happen to think that emotional reaction is a valid one for somebody so new to the country.
As for "how can this be represented as official polciy of the jjimjilbang": the receptionist working there says its the case. That person KNOWS what the deal is. They work there. They are told by the owner not to allow foreigners in. The owner would not speak to me. I communicated that.
I'd be happy to give you the number if you want to call and confirm for yourself. I did everything I could to make sure that I was reporting that aspect of the story honestly and I did.
You are missing the point of that part of the story. It's merely an introduction to the issue which I then counter a few paragraphs later by quoting someone who says "people are hypersensitive". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I wonder how much the Busan jimjilbang story is anecdotal, considering every jimjilbang rejection story I've seen here has involved a jimjilbang near Busan Station:
1) Central Asian naturalized Korean woman that hit the newspapers.
2) The Floating World.
3) Some poster fact-checking TFW.
4) "Brian"
Are we sure that it's not the same jimjilbang that's rejected all these people? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
One more thing...
| Quote: |
| I told his story the way I did |
Told his story the way I did?
So you manipulated the story?
Why couldn't the story be told the way he told it?
Is this his story or your story? |
No. You are reading way too much into my wording.
I told it in almost exactly the same way he did. I had to edit it down for word number sake but it's pretty much dead on.
There are a number of ways I could have told that story without manipulating the facts of it. But I chose, as much as possible, to tell it through his quotes.
I'm still not sure why we are having this argument. There is no arguing the fact that this sauna refuses foreigners. They openly keep this policy so its not like I'm sneakily accusing them of something.
I find it interesting that most people here are trying to discredit Brian in light of this fact. Can you not fathom for a second that he really was rejected from the sauna and it really was because they don't allow foreigners in?
Sometimes that happens here. I try to make the point later in the article that its not something to make a big deal over and that maybe we shouldn't be hypersensitive about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Julius wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| I do not see how you can conclude that Korea has the highest percentage of ANY NATION ON EARTH of people who have not conversed with foreigners. Seriously |
Thats common knowledge to anyone who has actually lived in this country at all recently....
. |
So when has 42% been considered a MAJORITY? Yes that was your claim.
| Quote: |
| "The majority of koreans still have never conversed with a foreign person" |
Direct quote from you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| earthquakez wrote: |
Some of you need to stop making excuses for East Asian countries such as Japan and Korea still living in the past with their emphasis on looks that denote acceptable blood, and their insistence in 2011 going on 2012 in defending discriminatory practices as normal despite being signatories to international conventions and being part of the developed world forums, trading blocs etc.
. |
Yes, some people do. Almost as badly as some of you need to stop engaging in vast hyperbole and sweeping generalizations based on ONE sauna refusing a foreigner admisssion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cfile2 wrote: |
| The owner would not speak to me. I communicated that. ". |
You said earlier that you had to leave out large sections of individual accounts out of your report because the people wanted to be anonymous?
Why not include it but identify the source only in the most general terms e.g. "An employee of a sauna in gyeongsangnam Province known as Lee said that...."
You see this on Korean TV shows all the time, people and their voices fuzzed out. In fact its virtually normal for koreans in the news to want to remain anonymous.
Everyone is so afraid of what other people will think in this country. Its a nation of paranoia. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cfile2
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Julius wrote: |
| cfile2 wrote: |
| The owner would not speak to me. I communicated that. ". |
You said earlier that you had to leave out large sections of individual accounts out of your report because the people wanted to be anonymous?
Why not include it but identify the source only in the most general terms e.g. "An employee of a sauna in gyeongsangnam Province known as Lee said that...."
You see this on Korean TV shows all the time, people and their voices fuzzed out. In fact its virtually normal for koreans in the news to want to remain anonymous.
Everyone is so afraid of what other people will think in this country. Its a nation of paranoia. |
I didn't include it because when somebody tells you "this is off the record" then you don't print it. I'm not going to burn a source when the point can be made in other ways. I tried to persuade them that they could remain anonymous but they didn't want anything printed about their stories. I agreed to speak with them on their terms. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cfile2 wrote: |
| I didn't include it because when somebody tells you "this is off the record" then you don't print it. I'm not going to burn a source when the point can be made in other ways. I tried to persuade them that they could remain anonymous but they didn't want anything printed about their stories. I agreed to speak with them on their terms. |
OK. I suppose they could be useful as future contacts in some way at least.
Still it seems excessively guarded. Indicative of a paranoid society wherein people know that you can mysteriously lose your livelihood for saying or doing something that should be legally protected. It wasn't long ago you could be jailed for simply criticising the government. This fear cripples and corrupts a society.
Your articles are good. Nice work. I'm a former journo myself. I can imagine the frustrations of trying to work in Korea though. Place where everything is secret and nobody is prepared to take responsibility for anything. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
