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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kimchifart wrote: |
| [. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
As regards attitude you could say that about most school systems including our own...it's even worse there on average.
And why is the class size so appalling?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
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| Note that some of the countries with some of the world�s highest achieving student bodies � like Korea and Japan � have the biggest class sizes. |
Bolding mine. |
Class sizes in public schools are irrelevant since the students learn nothing in the public schools.
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My experience in MY public schools runs directly counter to your claim above.
But then again I don't simply shift off the blame for why my students aren't learning on to my co-teacher and give up declaring all public schools are worthless.
I refine or hone my methods until I find something that works. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kimchifart wrote: |
| [. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
As regards attitude you could say that about most school systems including our own...it's even worse there on average.
And why is the class size so appalling?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
| Quote: |
| Note that some of the countries with some of the world�s highest achieving student bodies � like Korea and Japan � have the biggest class sizes. |
Bolding mine. |
Ah, two countries with large class sizes in the public schools followed by hours of small class sizes in hagwons and closely monitored individual study at home?
The Finns, Canadians, Australians and others produce similar results as Japan and Korea with significantly less grind and supplementary education. If we're going to have any honest discussion about educational policy we can't keep framing it as Korea/Japan/China vs. the US.
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And the Finns have much smaller class sizes and the Australians are about the same size as the U.S The Canadians aren't even mentioned.
And not all students attend hakwons...and I really doubt Korea and Japan are the only countries that have closely monitored individual study at home. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| DIsbell wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kimchifart wrote: |
| [. The biggest problem here is the attitude of students and class sizes. Both are appalling. |
As regards attitude you could say that about most school systems including our own...it's even worse there on average.
And why is the class size so appalling?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/
| Quote: |
| Note that some of the countries with some of the world�s highest achieving student bodies � like Korea and Japan � have the biggest class sizes. |
Bolding mine. |
Ah, two countries with large class sizes in the public schools followed by hours of small class sizes in hagwons and closely monitored individual study at home?
The Finns, Canadians, Australians and others produce similar results as Japan and Korea with significantly less grind and supplementary education. If we're going to have any honest discussion about educational policy we can't keep framing it as Korea/Japan/China vs. the US.
. |
And the Finns have much smaller class sizes and the Australians are about the same size as the U.S The Canadians aren't even mentioned.
And the Finns are really the only ones (as seen in the PISA report) that hang with the South Koreans. So class size doesn't really seem to be a factor here. One does well with large classes and one does well with smaller classes. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Class sizes may not be a bad thing in certain situations, with the right teacher and proper training,
but for a lot of NET's in the system, class sizes are a problem.
You can go around blaming those NET's and say they are not good teachers
etc, but the fact remains they are the teachers you have.
It makes sense to listen to what teachers are saying instead of ignoring them.
As long as Korea hires the way it does class size will be an issue. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And the Finns have much smaller class sizes and the Australians are about the same size as the U.S The Canadians aren't even mentioned.
And the Finns are really the only ones (as seen in the PISA report) that hang with the South Koreans. So class size doesn't really seem to be a factor here. One does well with large classes and one does well with smaller classes. |
So one country gets good results through large class sizes, extended time in public schools, hours of hakwon classes, and the highest household education expenditure in the OECD while another country gets similarly good results with less time, less supplementary education, and less household spending.... and your response is "same same, but different"?
I'm just gonna leave this chunk of wikipedia here to ponder:
The basic compulsory educational system in Finland is the nine-year comprehensive school (Finnish peruskoulu, Swedish grundskola, "basic school"), for which school attendance is mandatory (homeschooling is allowed, but rare). There are no "gifted" programs, and the more able children are expected to help those who are slower to catch on.
Schools up to university level are almost exclusively funded and administered by municipalities of Finland (local government). There are few private schools. The founding of a new private comprehensive school requires a political decision by the Council of State. When founded, private schools are given a state grant comparable to that given to a municipal school of the same size. However, even in private schools, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited, and selective admission is prohibited, as well: private schools must admit all its pupils on the same basis as the corresponding municipal school. In addition, private schools are required to give their students all the social entitlements that are offered to the students of municipal schools. Because of this, existing private schools are mostly faith-based or Steiner schools, which are comprehensive by definition.
Teachers, who are fully unionized, follow state curriculum guidelines but are accorded a great deal of autonomy as to methods of instruction and are even allowed to choose their own textbooks.[10]
Teachers and Classes are small, seldom more than twenty.[11] From the outset pupils are expected to learn two languages in addition to the language of the school (usually Finnish or Swedish), and students in grades one through nine spend from four to eleven periods each week taking classes in art, music, cooking, carpentry, metalwork, and textiles.[12] Small classes, insisted upon by the teachers' union, appear to be associated with student achievement, especially in science.[13] Inside the school, the atmosphere is relaxed and informal, and the buildings are so clean that students often wear socks and no shoes. Outdoor activities are stressed, even in the coldest weather; and homework is minimal to leave room for extra-curricular activities.[14] In addition to taking music in school, for example, many students attend the numerous state-subsidized specialized music schools after class[15] where for a small fee they learn to play an instrument as a hobby and study basic solf�ge and music theory using methods originated in Hungary by Kod�ly and further developed by the Hungarian-born Finn Csaba Szilvay and others.[16]
Reading for pleasure is actively encouraged (Finland publishes more children's books than any other country). Television stations show foreign programs in the original languages with subtitles, so that in Finland children even read while watching TV.[17]
During the first years of comprehensive school, grading may be limited to verbal assessments rather than formal grades. The start of numerical grading is decided locally. Most commonly, pupils are issued a report card twice a year: at the ends of the autumn and spring terms. There are no high-stakes tests.
Grades are given on scale from 4 to 10. In individual exams, but not on school year report or basic education certificate, it is also possible to divide the scale further with '�', which represents a half grade, and '+' and '�', which represent one-fourth a grade better or inferior. For example, the order is "9 < 9+ < 9� < 10� < 10". The grade '10+' can also be awarded for a perfect performance with extra effort by the student.
If a comprehensive school pupil receives the grade 4 in one subject at the end of the spring term, they must show by a separate examination at the end of summer term that they have improved in the subject. If the pupil receives multiple failing grades, they may have to retake the year, though it is considered far preferable to provide a struggling student with extra help and tutoring. In the rare cases where a student is retained, the decision is made by the teachers and the headmaster after interviewing the pupil and the parents.
Comprehensive school students enjoy a number of social entitlements, such as school health care and a free lunch everyday, which covers about a third of the daily nutritional need.[18] In addition, pupils are entitled to receive free books and materials and free school trips (or even housing) in the event that they have a long or arduous trip to school. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And the Finns have much smaller class sizes and the Australians are about the same size as the U.S The Canadians aren't even mentioned.
And the Finns are really the only ones (as seen in the PISA report) that hang with the South Koreans. So class size doesn't really seem to be a factor here. One does well with large classes and one does well with smaller classes. |
So one country gets good results through large class sizes, extended time in public schools, hours of hakwon classes, and the highest household education expenditure in the OECD while another country gets similarly good results with less time, less supplementary education, and less household spending.... and your response is "same same, but different"?
students in grades one through nine spend from four to eleven periods each week taking classes in art, music, cooking, carpentry, metalwork, and textiles.[12
[14] In addition to taking music in school, for example, many students attend the numerous state-subsidized specialized music schools after class[15] where for a small fee they learn to play an instrument as a hobby and study basic solf�ge and music theory using methods originated in Hungary by Kod�ly and further developed by the Hungarian-born Finn Csaba Szilvay and others.[16] |
Hmm... up to eleven periods at school plus many take music classes after school...doesn't sound all that much less than Korea. |
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Chimie
Joined: 05 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| From my experience being a precollege student in Japan, there obviously were plenty of kids that went to Jukus (Hagwons), but for the most part, at 4:30 when the school day ended, you either stayed at school for after-school activities (band, science club, sports, etc) or you went home. It was only really in Elementary 6, Middle 3, Highschool 3 that anyone went to privates, and that was for the entrance exams of the next schooling level. Certainly not to the level that Koreans go to After-school privates. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:11 am Post subject: |
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TUM, really? Really?
I'm not sure if your reading comprehension and critical thinking are off or if you're just willfully suspending disbelief for the sake of argument. Saying that Korean students up to Grade 9 have 4-11 credits per week in public school for arts and crafts is pretty absurd.
You have a slight point about after-school music lessons, but then you warp it by trying to say that a Finnish kid's after-school life is about the same as a Korean kid's. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Back on topic.. 
Why do you think the guy wrote this letter?
Was he trying to criticize all foreign English Teachers ,
or was he trying to criticize hiring practices,
or some other reason?
What do you think? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
... The hard reality is that each teacher has to be evaluated, hired and fired individually. There are no group decisions - discrimination based on membership in a group - that will yield optimum outcomes. ...
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:48 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you,
but that doesn't answer the question I posted. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Wanted: native english speaker |
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| Julius wrote: |
Wanted: native English speaker
Korea Times, March 18th
Sometimes unqualified native English speakers teach in Korean schools. My suggestion is they take a test to distinguish whether or not they can write the correct sentences and spellings.
If he finds himself again someday without any money during his travels, please do not visit this country again before he can correctly write sentences and spell in his own language.
He needed to learn basic English grammar. He should know that the right spelling and grammar are two common areas through which learners can access English.
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It seems to me the writer was trying to put down foreign English teachers and make himself and Korea look superior by comparison.
Koreans like to put down foreign teachers by saying: "the only thing he or she knows how to do is speak English." The capper comes if the teacher "can't even do that correctly." |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:17 am Post subject: |
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I sense that kind of sentiment also.
Koreans don't seem very good at assessing prospective teachers when they are hired. I'm not sure what kind of testing the guy had in mind, and how effective that would be in helping to evaluate prospective hires.
There's the whole question of what job is being filled as well.
A good teacher for kindergarten/ elementary may or may not
be a good teacher for adults/ university students.
There's really no easy answer. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Wanted: native english speaker |
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| ontheway wrote: |
It seems to me the writer was trying to put down foreign English teachers and make himself and Korea look superior by comparison.
Koreans like to put down foreign teachers by saying: "the only thing he or she knows how to do is speak English." |
Agreed, the smug xenephobic loathing here is palbable, but the problem is that in some cases he is right.
I've seen lots of western dregs wash up here that IMO should not have been anywhere near children let alone deserve the title of teacher.
Where he fails is the whole failing to take responsibility. Koreans seem to get off on hiring unqualified people based on their age, looks or nationality...then complaining that they are unqualified. Its just too stupid for words. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Wanted: native english speaker |
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| Julius wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
It seems to me the writer was trying to put down foreign English teachers and make himself and Korea look superior by comparison.
Koreans like to put down foreign teachers by saying: "the only thing he or she knows how to do is speak English." |
Agreed, the smug xenephobic loathing here is palbable, but the problem is that in some cases he is right.
I've seen lots of western dregs wash up here that IMO should not have been anywhere near children let alone deserve the title of teacher.
Where he fails is the whole failing to take responsibility. Koreans seem to get off on hiring unqualified people based on their age, looks or nationality...then complaining that they are unqualified. Its just too stupid for words. |
There is no perfect hiring system.
A business expert I was reading once discussed this type of problem. His view was that hiring mistakes could be minimized but not prevented. Instead he recommended being willing to recognize those mistakes early, and to quickly fire and replace those individuals who can't perform properly or don't fit in the organization. |
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