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Korean woman drinking on the subway
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject:

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.. no I didn't. Go back through the thread and tell me where I stated that.

I stated:

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the lack of severe facial bruising indicates she has not been beaten to a pulp on a regular basis.

You stated:

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just for 3 out of the 4 occasions.

As well as:

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Oh sure, smoking = assault, and we must summarily smash the skulls of women who smoke.

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Minor civil infractions do not warrant the vicious physical beating of women.

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No just the vast majority of the time, which I backed with evidence.

No, you stated it as an absolute. At no point were the words "likely" or "probably" or "in most cases" used.

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Like I've just proven to you: an ajosshi can smoke in the subway and nobody says a word. A woman does it and the nearest male sees it as his right to slap or hit her.

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But should a female try the same? Bang! a swift smack to the head.

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Yet the moment a Korean woman lights up..the nearest korean male sees it as his right to smash her into a wall with all his might.

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I showed evidence to back up everything I said.

You, however, were unable to show any evidence to back up your claims.

Your evidence is inconclusive. It is a small sample size and in no way is sufficient to support your claims.

You are a college educated individual right? Explain to me how we would be able to verify your hypothesis and how much data and evidence we would need to prove it.

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No I wasn't. The old guy started jabbing trying to knock the cigarette out her hand with his umbrella. Thats initiating a physical altercation.

Blowing smoke in one's face in a non-smoking area is initiating a physical confrontation.

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first up she never "threw her shoe".

She threw something at him and that initiated the physical confrontation.

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I don't know if you have ever noticed, but women invariably are smaller, lighter, weaker than men.

Invariably? Even older ones?

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In conclusion..you support grievous physical violence against weaker and more vulnerable members of society.

So I take it you would be against some 6 foot college aged waygook getting into an altercation with some 5 foot 4 ajosshi for the ajosshi smoking on a subway car and swearing at people, even if the ajosshi were to pour a beer on the guy and or throw something at him.

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In your world, Korean males can smoke and raise no more than the occasional frown yet a woman must be soundly beaten for the same offence.

Nope, simply that your conclusions that you have drawn, Mr. Julius, are wrong and without sufficient evidence. I also believe you are suffering from bias and prejudice (as well as a few other things) and it is affecting your judgment in this case.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you Julius, does not mean they support the Taliban and violence against women. I've heard that crap since 9/11, it's really getting old.

This woman is not an innocent victim. She is a nutcase and was being deliberately proactive and in all likelihood was doing it to encourage physical confrontation. Maybe some seriously masochistic behavior.

Her innocence all falls apart with her engaging in extremely inappropriate behavior repeatedly, in an aggressive manner, and trying to encourage such incidents.

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Her innocence all falls apart with her engaging in extremely inappropriate behavior repeatedly.

So we should smash her skull against the wall?

Cigarette smokers deserve to be physically assaulted?

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Her innocence all falls apart with her engaging in extremely inappropriate behavior repeatedly.

So we should smash her skull against the wall?

Cigarette smokers deserve to be physically assaulted?

No, but its perfectly fine for someone to knock a cig from someone's mouth with an umbrella if they're smoking on the subway or to grab it from their lips.

And if the person retaliates by throwing something or pouring beer on someone, restraining them is perfectly reasonable.

And if while being restrained they get belligerent and start flailing and swinging, a take down is in order.

Now if she flung boiling hot coffee or ramyun, then harsher measures might be justified.

Now that is not what happened in those cases and that was wrong. But that doesn't make her completely innocent or some symbol for feminism.

Smoking in subways is downright rude and dangerous. It is extreme selfishness and an aggressive act on the smoker's part.

Put it this way, if some white lady runs up into some black guy's face on the subway and starts dropping N bombs and making monkey gestures while throwing grape kool-aid on him and he shoves her into the side of the car, while he may be technically illegal, I'm not going to throw the book at him while holding the lady up as a symbol of misogyny and the right of free speech.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:56 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Julius wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Her innocence all falls apart with her engaging in extremely inappropriate behavior repeatedly.

So we should smash her skull against the wall?

Cigarette smokers deserve to be physically assaulted?

Completely agree. If you want to smoke do not do so in an enclosed space where other non-smokers are around and where it is illegal.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

I can see why some would view smoking...as assault.
She chose to break the law and assault those around her.

Oh sure, smoking = assault, and we must summarily smash the skulls of women who smoke. Rolling Eyes

You and offtherails both condone public violence against women for minimal infractions.

Tell me, how would you feel if this sharia law of yours were to be inflicted on your own female relatives?

Would it still be a good idea then?

I view blowing smoke in someone's face as assault. I also view spitting on someone as assault. You decided to selectively edit my quote to prove some odd little agenda of yours... But it's misleading.

I would feel the same way if it was a man smoking.

I do not see this as a gender issue, but rather a case of assault.

But if youve got PROOF that I condone violence against women and would like to bring in sharia law, by all means, show it. But to most people you just sound like you've gone off the deep end.

How about you actually read my post and quote it in full next time?

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:09 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Julius wrote:

Cigarette smokers deserve to be physically assaulted?

No, but

Ah. So you actually agree with me that a smoking woman should not be violently beaten up by the nearest male.

Welcome to 2012.

Now that you have made this baby step, lets take the next logical step:

DO YOU AGREE that the violent offendor who smashed her against the wall, into the steel pole and punched her in the face several times... should face imprisonment?

CaptainCorea wrote:

I view blowing smoke in someone's face as assault.

She wasn't blowing smoke into anyones face.

Are you saying that a relatively minor, non-violent, non-physical infraction (ie smoking) requires a serious, dangerous, violent, physical assault in return?

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Julius wrote:

Cigarette smokers deserve to be physically assaulted?

No, but

CaptainCorea wrote:

I view blowing smoke in someone's face as assault.

She's obviously provoking people because that's the whole reason for doing this. This isn't an isolated incident and she doesn't act like a victim, but rather someone crying out for attention and trying to provoke an incident.

Julius I think you seriously need to rewatch those videos.

She's not just smoking, she's drinking and carrying on in an obnoxious manner. When asked to stop her illegal, rude, and dangerous activity she proceeds to curse and insult the people involved and in one instance dumps beer on someone, and in another she throws something at someone. In the one where she throws something she shoves the man first, after her initial push into the seat where the guy is returning to his seat, she starts up the fight again by swinging at him. She goes to take off her shoe, he slaps her after that. She takes off her shoe to use as a weapon.

Now the guy threw her way too violently and I wouldn't slap someone if they started to take off their shoe, and in each incident I would have handled things differently. So no, I do not support Sharia law in Korea.

Now here's one thing Julius- If she's so innocent and such a victim, how come at no point does she try to run away or call for help? Instead she insults the person and does everything possible to escalate the situation. She doesn't even burst into tears.

Why is she repeatedly engaging in this behavior? Why does she go to a subway to drink and smoke and not to a bar or at home?

Answer: She wants the fight. She wants the attention.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

CaptainCorea wrote:

I view blowing smoke in someone's face as assault.

How can you be certain? She was in an enclosed space where smoking is illegal. Yet she was smoking. Was she blowing out the window, or was it "in everyone's face"?

Spitting, blowing smoke, ect... there are many manners of assault. IMO, she assaulted those around her by smoking in a prohibited, enclosed space.

Someone trying to remove the cigarette is not beyond imagination or reason. Just like if someone was squirting me with a water pistol without my permission - removing the source of that squirt would and could be reasonable.

You done quoting me in parts now, or are you still WRONGLY insisting your agenda on me?

Squire

Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Location: Jeollanam-do

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

Julius wrote:

CaptainCorea wrote:

I view blowing smoke in someone's face as assault.

Assault seems a bit of an exaggeration Very Happy

If somebody with a cold coughed nearby without covering their mouth would that also be assault?

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

She's obviously provoking people because that's the whole reason for doing this.
She's not just smoking, she's drinking and carrying on in an obnoxious manner.

I agree that she was out of order, she was obnoxious and provocative.

But then so is spitting, drunkeness, nodding off and falling into the next persons lap, kids screaming or leaning onto the person nearby, people swearing, talking loudly on their cellphones; people having arguments, or pushing and shoving or deliberately blocking your path.

All of that is a regular ocurrence on the subway. All of that is on the same level as someone smoking. ie it is a non-physically-violent but provocative action. All of that would presumably be classified by CapnCorea as "assault".

Should it be punished vigilante style by the nearest male? You seem to be condoning, glossing over and making an awful lot of excuses for hideous violence.

Second, I have demonstrated korean men smoking in and on the subway, who get ignored by the general public. Obviously this violent battery punishment applies only to women in this society, while men get away with the same behaviour.

Quote:

When asked to stop her illegal, rude, and dangerous activity she proceeds to curse and insult the people involved

I agree that she was initially asked, but she didn't insult the people immediately. She tried to ignore them.. but finally responded to persistent physical provocation.

If someone was jabbing in your face with an umbrella would you eventually lose it? Probably. The fact is that the men in these situations all needlessly and violently escalated the situation, they initiated and carried out physical assault. That is unlawful, they should be charged.

Especially when there was clearly an easy, effective, and proper way to handle the situation- all they had to do was call the subway police on the number provided and she would have been removed at the next stop (what..2 minutes away at most)?.

Quote:

Why is she repeatedly engaging in this behavior? Why does she go to a subway to drink and smoke and not to a bar or at home?

Ah..finally you have asked a worthwhile question. If you had any insight into human behaviour and psyche at all, you might guess that she is obviously angry and rebelling against something. A bit more observation and you might notice that this society is male-dominated, that violence against women is tolerated to an extraordinary high level, etc etc. Put two and two together please. I'm not excuing her behaviour but people are products of their societies and you can see what has likely driven her to this.

Quote:

Answer: She wants the fight.

Just when I thought you had arrived at something profound, you choose the neanderthal option.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject:

Squire wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

Julius wrote:

CaptainCorea wrote:

I view blowing smoke in someone's face as assault.

Assault seems a bit of an exaggeration Very Happy

If somebody with a cold coughed nearby without covering their mouth would that also be assault?

Would it be? That's an interesting question. If spitting is assault... I don't see why other things cannot be. There'd have to be some burden of proof of intent, though.

A VERY bad example is the Constable Bubble issue in Canada - being arrested for blowing bubbles.

I think it could be easily argued that this woman has shown a clear intent to violate the laws and provoke others.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:33 am Post subject:

Quote:

Most of those things you listed aren't against the law.

There is a law against smoking. There isn't one for screaming kids.

Duh.

Quote:

Second, I have demonstrated korean men smoking in and on the subway, who get ignored by the general public. Obviously this violent battery punishment applies only to women in this society, while men get away with the same behaviour.

In order to prove that it only happens to women, you have to document that every time a woman has lit up, she has been assaulted. You also have to document that a man has never gotten in an altercation over it.

Why is it so hard for you to understand the proper burden of proof for your claim?

This is how you should phrase it: It is more likely for a woman to get involved in an altercation than a man.

Did you even graduate H.S.?

Quote:

he tried to ignore them.. but finally responded to persistent physical provocation.

Wrong, in one video she throws something at the man before he lays a finger on her.

And the other men were responding to her physical provocation by engaging in illegal smoking.

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If someone was jabbing in your face with an umbrella would you eventually lose it? Probably.

If I wanted them to stop jabbing me in the face I could cease the illegal smoking and put out my cigarette.

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The fact is that the men in these situations all needlessly and violently escalated the situation, they initiated and carried out physical assault. That is unlawful, they should be charged.

Actually in all of this incidents the men asked her to stop her illegal activity and she refused and launched into a profanity laced tirade.

She escalated by refusing to cease her illegal activity and swearing at them.

Again, what if the situation was reversed? What if it was a woman doing it to an ajosshi? Would you have the same opinion?

Quote:

If you had any insight into human behaviour and psyche at all, you might guess that she is obviously angry and rebelling against something. A bit more observation and you might notice that this society is male-dominated, that violence against women is tolerated to an extraordinary high level, etc etc. Put two and two together please. I'm not excuing her behaviour but people are products of their societies and you can see what has likely driven her to this.

Or maybe she just wants attention. She wants to provoke a fight so people will pay attention to her. Maybe she even likes getting roughed up a little.

Maybe she just likes to smoke wherever and is going to smoke wherever. Maybe the issue is with non-smoking laws.

If she was rebelling, where is her message? Where is her protest? Most importantly, why does she refuse to call for help when being assaulted?

Why only the gender focus on this issue? Why not the second-hand smoke aspect of this issue? You do realize that even women could take more of an issue with her second-hand smoke rather than the violence against her. Have you seen the sentiments of anti-smoking advocated and how they feel about smokers, especially those that would violate smoke-free zones?

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:57 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

There is a law against smoking. There isn't one for screaming kids.

Right. And there is a set penalty for it. A fine.
And a number to call if you see someone smoking on the subway. And a whole task force ready to remove such a person within minutes.

The penalty for smoking does not include having your head bashed against the wall.
The law does not allow for members of the public to physically attack a woman who is smoking.

Are we clear yet?

So obviously those who initiated and dealt the violence should be arrested and charged. Yes?

Quote:

No, I don't. You have set up a false criteria, revealing only how desperate you have become.
I made an assertion and backed it with evidence.
If you wanted to refute it, you simply have to provide counter-evidence. You've failed.

If your criterion for acceptable evidence was correct, then science and the law courts would never be able to make a decision or a theory.
In reality judges and scientists make reasonable conclusions based on the evidence before them.

Quote:

men were responding to her physical provocation by engaging in illegal smoking.

Smoking is not a physical provocation, neither is it a physical assault.

Quote:

If she was rebelling, where is her message? Where is her protest?

You would never know, because your attitudes are too much like the men shown in the vid.

For the second time: do the men who initiated and carried out violent physical assaults on a woman deserve to be charged and punished? Yes or no.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:21 am Post subject:

A few months back I saw two older Korean gents on the subway drinking soju and having a great (loud) time. One of them was constantly dripping spit onto the ground (in the subway car), and cussing up a storm. An ajjumma confronted them, yelled at them for a bit, and eventually knocked the little paper cup out of the obnoxious guy's hand. Prior to that, most people on the train were just sitting there giving the guys dirty looks, but after the women took a stand, many others chimed in and spoke up against the behaviour of the drunks. Should she have pressed the help button - Yeah, I'd say so. Was she way out of line - Nah, not to me. She called them on their behaviour, and most everyone on the train seemed to support her. I believe that the woman in question should have been handled by the proper authorities, but, I am also fine with people taking a stand against illegal activity. And Julius, I'm still waiting on your proof of me being fine with women being beaten in public and supporting Sharia law and such... you ever going to back up that stance, or are you actually going to admit that my position and posts have nothing to do with gender?

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:46 am Post subject:

Come on now...spitting or blowing smoke in someone's face is offensive and wrong but it does not constitute an assault. That is a bit much. Still, if someone blows smoke in someone's face intentionally AND does so in a non-smoking area then that person is asking for trouble.

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