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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YTMND wrote:
[ As mentioned before, if a teacher is able to legally work at a second location, they would be an independent contractor.



No. Employees can work at a second location as well with the permission of their primary employer and Immigration. Working at a second location does not determine your status one way or the other.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Employees can work at a second location as well with the permission of their primary employer and Immigration.


That's not in conflict with what I stated.

Quote:
Working at a second location does not determine your status one way or the other.


Of course it does. You cannot get employee benefits can you working at a second location? Are there E2 visa holders working a second location and getting more pension? I doubt it.

What would you call them in the case of working a second location if not independent contractors for the second job exclusively?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YTMND wrote:
Quote:
Employees can work at a second location as well with the permission of their primary employer and Immigration.


That's not in conflict with what I stated.

Quote:
Working at a second location does not determine your status one way or the other.


Of course it does. You cannot get employee benefits can you working at a second location? Are there E2 visa holders working a second location and getting more pension? I doubt it.

What would you call them in the case of working a second location if not independent contractors for the second job exclusively?


The secondary job doesn't determine your status. It is the primary job. That (in part) is why you are not allowed to work more hours or make more money at your second job than you do at your first. Someone who is truely an independent contractor on the other hand would/should have no such restrictions.

The rules are different for each. So are the tax rates and benefits.

For example working at two or more public schools jobs is okay on an E-2 and being an employee. Your employer is still the MOE/POE/city not the school in and of itself.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The secondary job doesn't determine your status. It is the primary job.


If this is true, then it doesn't matter what you are called in the second contract? What if the second contract clearly states "independent contractor"? Is that not enforceable by the second school?

Also, what if the second school doesn't take out taxes and such?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YTMND wrote:
Quote:
The secondary job doesn't determine your status. It is the primary job.


(1)If this is true, then it doesn't matter what you are called in the second contract?

(2) What if the second contract clearly states "independent contractor"?

(3) Is that not enforceable by the second school?

(4)Also, what if the second school doesn't take out taxes and such?



(I numbered your questions and edited the post for more clarity.)


1. Well in the case of P.S there would be no need for a second contract (UNLESS) you are working at an after-school program). Your contract at the P.S would apply at the second P.S as well (any differences would be negligible). In the case of hakwons you are still getting pension and insurance from the first one (hopefully) so you are still covered if say an accident occurs at the second place.


2. In the case of public schools the first contract that you signed applies to all schools in the district...(with few if any exceptions). This is because public schools tend to be standardized according to what program they fall under (GEPIK, EPIK, SMOE or some subset thereof).
In the case of hakwons it would depend on which school is sponsoring your work visa. Your primary school always takes precedence. Depending on the deal they cobble together it may or may not be legal...anyone under such a deal should attempt to find out just what is going on.


3. Again it depends. If you are a REAL IC as opposed to the scam that some hakwons attempt to pull then yes it is enforceable. But it wouldn't matter what you are called if you were an employee at another school (so long as that school was paying your pension/medical insurance...you don't get to double dip.) I'm not sure what you mean by "enforceable". So long as you are getting pension and medical insurance from one school the other one doesn't have to pay it.


4. Well that would be illegal...whether it is detected and penalized is another story all together.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth,

Ok, one last issue and I won't carry this on any longer. If one were to ask the second school about the identity of "the" teacher, should that second school say, "They are an employee of another school that hired them before we did", not, "They are an employee of our school."?

If it is the latter, then are you saying there are two types of employees, one that has benefits (like pension, airfare, visa sponsorship, and severance) and another kind of employee who only works temporarily/part-time without the benefits listed?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YTMND wrote:
TheUrbanMyth,

Ok, one last issue and I won't carry this on any longer. If one were to ask the second school about the identity of "the" teacher, should that second school say, "They are an employee of another school that hired them before we did", not, "They are an employee of our school."?

If it is the latter, then are you saying there are two types of employees, one that has benefits (like pension, airfare, visa sponsorship, and severance) and another kind of employee who only works temporarily/part-time without the benefits listed?


Both are (technically) correct.

As far as I know in the case of E-2 visa holders there are only two main types of workers. Employees and independent contractors. But both are required to be covered by pension and medical insurance (with some exceptions like South Africans for example or being above a certain age)
In the case of an employee your boss co-pays whereas if you are an IC you pay it all.

To the best of my knowledge if you are on an E-2 visa I don't think you can work part-time without said benefits. Unless you are an IC and meet the requirements for exemption from pension/insurance.

Part time work as you are suggesting would likely be more for a Korean citizen or possibly an F-visa holder. (All the info above is based on the assumption we are talking about E-2 visa class holders only.)
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Mountain Mama



Joined: 20 Feb 2010
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YTMND wrote:
Quote:
Why don't you follow it? The OP didn't say anything about being an independent contractor.


REWIND, PAUSE, PRESS PLAY WHEN READY

"I'd go to the pension office and complain, but the one trouble is that it doesn't specifically say that they will pay it in my contract."

If this doesn't represent an independent contractor, then how does it represent an employee? Employees would be entitled to pension, right?

So, obvious deduction, yes, the OP is addressing independent contractor status. As mentioned before, if a teacher is able to legally work at a second location, they would be an independent contractor.


Wow! You're really grasping at straws there aren't you?

Why is it that the only reason that you post on this forum is to either insult people or tell people that they're SOL? What's your problem? People are posting their questions here because they want some help. They aren't telling us about their lives just so that jerks like you can insult them or put them down by telling them that their situation is hopeless that they should have known better. Grow up and learn to respect people.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
if you are on an E-2 visa I don't think you can work part-time without said benefits.


I am talking about a teacher working full-time at school 1 and SOMETHING ELSE at the second school. WHAT DO YOU CALL IT THEN if not part-time? Is it a) part-time b) full-time c) something else (please identify)


Setting aside all the exceptions, just a normal E2 visa holder taking a second job. Please reply within just this context. No tax exemptions, no marriages, etc....

Quote:
Part time work as you are suggesting would likely be more for a Korean citizen or possibly an F-visa holder.


So, an E2 visa holder can never do part-time work? Again, this pertains to the first part, identifying whatever it is the E2 visa holder does. It still sounds like independent contractor work unless you can explain to me exactly 1) what the person does, and 2) what that second school calls them.


Last edited by YTMND on Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why is it that the only reason that you post on this forum is to either insult people or tell people that they're SOL?


Can't you see TheUrbanMyth and I are having a mature conversation? I am asking him questions. No one is insulting or telling anyone they are out of luck. I am just giving an honest opinion.

Quote:
People are posting their questions here because they want some help.


Look at some of my recent posts, they contain a crazy thing called a question mark. This means I am asking them too. How about you stop insulting?

Quote:
Grow up and learn to respect people.


I am, please consider this wise medicine and take it yourself. Let's cool it, see you on another thread unless you can play nicely here and contribute something constructive.
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Troglodyte



Joined: 06 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YTMND wrote:
Quote:
Why is it that the only reason that you post on this forum is to either insult people or tell people that they're SOL?


Can't you see TheUrbanMyth and I are having a mature conversation? I am asking him questions. No one is insulting or telling anyone they are out of luck. I am just giving an honest opinion.


It looks more like TUM is giving useful information, and YOU are just trolling.

From the posts that I've read it also looks like you ARE just telling OPs that they're out of luck. You haven't given anyone useful information or advice, or even encouragement. It really looks like you're just here to argue with people. In other words, you're trolling. You're looking for a fight and willing to pick one with anyone. Don't expect people to give your 'honest opinions' much value.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It looks more like TUM is giving useful information, and YOU are just trolling.


Well, I am asking him questions and he his giving me information. I am learning stuff I didn't know. I don't consider that trolling. I am sorry if you don't like it, but I don't know all. I am trying to learn what an employee is and what an independent contractor is in more detail.

I hear these titles mentioned frequently on here and only see the surface. I'll explain more with my next comment.

Quote:
From the posts that I've read it also looks like you ARE just telling OPs that they're out of luck.


Not at all. I never said they are out of luck. In this case, it is not clear to me if the original poster is an employee or independent contractor. I am asking and questioning. It seems like some people on here are more interested in joining a side, for the teacher or against the teacher.

That isn't how my thinking is. I am not taking sides, I have never been against a teacher as a default stance. I am questioning and then getting information. If someone has gone through the legal process and can tell us EXACTLY how to get more money, do you think I am going to go against that?

Of course not. I am saying, let's put our heads together and think of a solution. This is what I think a hagwon would argue against the teacher. Now, let's tackle that problem so the legal system can tell them to pay or be penalized in a way they don't want to be.

Now, if you guys don't mind, I would like to refrain from this trolling attack. Just leave it out of this thread. I want to see what TUM or anyone else has to say about this issue.

I don't want to be judged here or have this thread about what others think I am doing on this thread.

Please scroll back and read my last comment to TUM, and if you have something to contribute then please do. I am again requesting you guys stop with lashing out at me for "trolling" when all I am doing is trying to understand how the system works.

Quote:
You're looking for a fight and willing to pick one with anyone.


No, I am on the receiving end of information from TUM now and attacks from you. Please stop and just let TUM reply or reply yourself if you have something constructive to add. That will be it for this thread "trolling" replies.

I am only interested in sincere replies that deal with the issue at hand. So, my next reply will be about that. I am not looking for fights, I am looking for information.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to try to unravel the combination of fact and misinformation by various posters above. Here is how it really works:

Working at Multiple Locations as and Independent Contractor and/or as an Employee:

In Korea it is possible and legal to be either an Independent Contractor or an Employee. This is true for Koreans and Foreigners.

It is also possible to work at multiple locations for different businesses or organizations.

Let's suppose an individual has two work places:
It is possible and legal to be an employee at the first and the second.
It is possible and legal to be an employee at the first and an IC at the second.
It is possible and legal to be an IC at the first and an employee at the second.
It is possible and legal to be an IC at the first and an IC at the second.

This is true for Koreans, foreigners, and E2 teachers.


What about the immigration rules? For foreign workers, Immigration requires that you have their approval to add a second workplace. They also require permission of the individual's sponsor. This has no effect on whether a person is an employee or an IC at a second workplace, just as Immi rules have no affect on the employee/IC situation for the primary workplace. It's still up to the tax office rules and Immigration has no say.

Immigration decides who can come into Korea.

The tax office decides who is an employee or IC.

How can this be? Imagine that you want to be a professional chauffeur, taxi driver, bus driver etc. You may own your own taxi and drive for a bus company. You will have to meet a variety of licensing rules to be able to drive on the roads and operate different vehicles. You may legally be able to drive some vehicles and not others. But none of these rules affect whether you are an employee or IC. Those rules are made by the tax office. Of course the tax office cannot make rules to let you drive a car.


What about taxes, pension and health insurance?


In General:

If you are an IC at multiple locations, you legally have to report all of your earnings and use the total from all your workplaces in make payments for Income taxes, Health Insurance and Pension. Your additional locations are not exempt or excluded from your responsibility to pay.

Likewise, if you are an employee, you will be taxed and pay Health Insurance and Pension on the additional amounts.

If you are working both as an employee and an IC your reporting and filing will be more complex, but you are not exempt.

However, for every job you have as an employee, the employer will have to report and make payments on your behalf and will have to pay half of the Pension and Health Insurance.

For every job as an IC, you are responsible for your own Pension and Health Insurance reporting and payments and you pay 100%. However your boss has to withhold Income taxes and pay them in.

There are, as always, other rules to consider:
If you are an employee or an IC, there are low levels of pay or payment which fall below the level that requires deductions by your boss. They will withhold nothing. It is then up to the individual to be honest and report these earnings or payments if they rise to the level that requires payment of Income taxes, Health Insurance and Pension amounts.


To understand further, remember this:

In Korea, the National Health Insurance is not really insurance, it is a tax that supports a socialized health care system. So, your payments are not set to cover the actuarially determined costs of health services for members of your pool of insured members. Rather, the government just charges more as you make more. So, when you earn more money you pay more for health care. You are supposed to make payments for your earnings from every workplace.

Similarly, the National Pension also requires payments from each workplace, which, within limits, means you will get a bigger payout at retirement.

Korean Income taxes are progressive: the more you make the higher your rate and the more you pay (in general). While withholding rules differ for employees and ICs, the actual tax rates paid at filing time are the same, although an IC may be able to take more deductions before determining his taxable income.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Working at Multiple Locations as and Independent Contractor and/or as an Employee:


I agree that people can work as an independent contractor. Now, let me ask the other way. Do you have a law that supports this?

Quote:
Let's suppose an individual has two work places:

It is possible and legal to be an employee at the first and the second.
It is possible and legal to be an employee at the first and an IC at the second.

It is possible and legal to be an IC at the first and an employee at the second.

It is possible and legal to be an IC at the first and an IC at the second.


I am not disputing this. You seem to be skipping something. What does the second school call that teacher (in other words, what can the second school LEGALLY call that teacher if this were to go to court?)? An employee of their school or an employee of the teacher's first school? This is for the typical E2 teacher who doesn't have any of the exceptions listed.

Quote:
The tax office decides who is an employee or IC.


Interesting. Does anyone have first hand experience with this or links to back this up?


Quote:
If you are working both as an employee and an IC your reporting and filing will be more complex, but you are not exempt.


I agree with this. Do you mean the teacher is (can be) an employee at the first school and an independent contractor at the second school? This is for the typical E2 teacher who doesn't have any of the exceptions listed.

Quote:
Similarly, the National Pension also requires payments from each workplace, which, within limits, means you will get a bigger payout at retirement.


Well, ontheway, it's refreshing to see this post. Thank you for your time. I didn't think I was crazy. Are there any resources you can send us to to back up what you are saying? I agree with 70% of what you are saying and hazy about the other 30%.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:

However, for every job you have as an employee, the employer will have to report and make payments on your behalf and will have to pay half of the Pension and Health Insurance.



Unless you are working at a public school as an employee under the EPIK/GEPIK umbrella. Then it doesn't matter how many public schools you work at...you still only get ONE pension payment because your employer is the government not the school. Just like I said above. If you work at another P.S you get paid extra (20,000) per class above the 22 contractual limit. But it's not treated as another job per se it's treated the same as if you worked at ONE school and did all those classes THERE.
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