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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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 Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| History is written by the victor and that includes maps. I would guess that the term 'East Sea' would be adopted to suit China. I wouldn't be very impressed if the Norks got their way and it was renamed 'East Sea of Korea'. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| So Koreans are trying to convince the American government to change the names of different bodies of water around Korea? Is that what this is all about? Then why hold a map exhibition in Suwon? That's just preaching to the choir. Why not hold the exhibition in Washington, D.C., or does that make too much sense? And what teachers are being sent to this exhibition? Is it a school trip? |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems Koreans only remember the negatives of Japanese occupation. The Japanese did build schools and hospitals, created a government infrastructure, and established industrial companies. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| It seems Koreans only remember the negatives of Japanese occupation. The Japanese did build schools and hospitals, created a government infrastructure, and established industrial companies. |
And the Germans built fun little living quarters for the Jews to live in!
One of my grandfathers was forcibly taken away from his home in Gwangju to work in a munitions factory in Tokyo. He died a month after I was born after years of suffering from injuries he received while *given the opportunity* to help "create a government infrastructure" by working in Japan.
Any benefit that the Koreans received is heavily outweighed by the negatives. The Holocaust was an atrocity, but the argument could be made that the Japanese war crimes were as bad, if not worse. The Nazis did not partake in massive amounts of biological testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) of prisoners and the Japanese also murdered more prisoners.
Trying to put the Japanese occupation in a good light in any way is like stating that the US prison system should be celebrated for disinfecting an area of the arm before a lethal injection. Just ludicrous in my opinion. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| It seems Koreans only remember the negatives of Japanese occupation. The Japanese did build schools and hospitals, created a government infrastructure, and established industrial companies. |
And the average life-span of the Koreans doubled.
Now if it was a domestic leader who accomplished this, perhaps he would be celebrated. The same way Kim Il-sung is today in some circles.
But the reality is it was still a foreign and hostile force (albeit with a lot of support from the Korean elite). The Koreans language and culture were suppressed. Individuals rights were taken away as men were forced into military and industrial conscription which lead to the deaths of thousands. Other Koreans were used in sick and twisted forms of medical experimentation.
Furthermore, thousands of Korean women were either duped, kidnapped or yes, even volunteered to act as prostitutes or even sex slaves for the Japanese army.
So the Koreans do have some grounds for anger.
But it's time to get over it. The Japanese have made apologies. To deny that it is just ignorant and untruthful.
Issues like Dokdo, East Sea, ect... are now used more for political distraction and to sustain a identity victim-hood which will get them no where.
Where's the same uproar to the human rights situation in the North? Yes, its there, but not at the same level to the abuses caused by the Japanese.
Why focus the majority of your anger (i.e. building statues outside embassies, celebrity statements, full page adds in American newspapers) on the past (Japanese) when the reality (North Korea) is happening now?
This is the primary reason why I cannot fully support the Koreans on this issue. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grumpy Senator wrote: |
| I am not trying to convince anyone of anything; I just feel that people should understand the argument before making comments that make them look dumb. Look over the evidence and come to your own conclusion. |
The problem is that you're trying to reason with the unreasonable. These are the same people that think conspiracies lurk behind every accident, racism is the motive behind every glance, and that Korean society is not composed of individuals, but a Borg-like collective that holds uniform beliefs and commit the same actions. |
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bish
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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"The Holocaust was an atrocity, but the argument could be made that the Japanese war crimes were as bad, if not worse. "
No it couldn't... |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| bish wrote: |
"The Holocaust was an atrocity, but the argument could be made that the Japanese war crimes were as bad, if not worse. "
No it couldn't... |
From historian Professor Chalmers Johnson:
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers�and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| everything-is-everything wrote: |
And the average life-span of the Koreans doubled.
Now if it was a domestic leader who accomplished this, perhaps he would be celebrated. The same way Kim Il-sung is today in some circles.
But the reality is it was still a foreign and hostile force (albeit with a lot of support from the Korean elite). The Koreans language and culture were suppressed. Individuals rights were taken away as men were forced into military and industrial conscription which lead to the deaths of thousands. Other Koreans were used in sick and twisted forms of medical experimentation.
Furthermore, thousands of Korean women were either duped, kidnapped or yes, even volunteered to act as prostitutes or even sex slaves for the Japanese army.
So the Koreans do have some grounds for anger.
But it's time to get over it. The Japanese have made apologies. To deny that it is just ignorant and untruthful.
Issues like Dokdo, East Sea, ect... are now used more for political distraction and to sustain a identity victim-hood which will get them no where.
Where's the same uproar to the human rights situation in the North? Yes, its there, but not at the same level to the abuses caused by the Japanese.
Why focus the majority of your anger (i.e. building statues outside embassies, celebrity statements, full page adds in American newspapers) on the past (Japanese) when the reality (North Korea) is happening now?
This is the primary reason why I cannot fully support the Koreans on this issue. |
1) I haven't read anything about the lifespans so I can't really say anything about that, though I'd be extremely surprised if lifespans truly "doubled".
2) The Empress of Korea was assassinated as well as most members of her court. Many yangbans in Korea were forced to flee to Manchuria.
3) Japan has made one apology that I know of. And I'd be fine with that if it weren't for the fact that the hawkish current government has done a full 180 with several members of government full out denying the Japanese atrocities. Call me near-sighted and stupid, but I feel that those actions completely nullify the original apology. And the Japanese never apologized for forced prostitution.
4) I agree. The situation in North Korea is bad, but what can be done? There are SK citizens who help NK citizens escape. My cousins tutor former NK nationals in English so that they can better adapt to SK. My uncle donates money every year to various organizations that help NK citizens. What do you do to help?
Sure what my relatives do may be more than what most in SK do, but the truth is that nothing can be done that could potentially lead to war. The latest Pentagon report I read stated that in the even of a war, 1 million people would die in the first 24 hours. |
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Nismo
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
3) Japan has made one apology that I know of. And I'd be fine with that if it weren't for the fact that the hawkish current government has done a full 180 with several members of government full out denying the Japanese atrocities. Call me near-sighted and stupid, but I feel that those actions completely nullify the original apology. And the Japanese never apologized for forced prostitution.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
Every time Japan apologizes, "it's not good enough" or "they are insincere". Nevermind that Korea officially accepted reparations in 1965 which it in turn used to boost its economy for its drive to become the economic powerhouse that it is today. In fact, South Korea said it would handle the distribution of compensation to South Korean citizens itself, and then instead used the money to build up companies like Hyundai (which magically began operating outside of South Korea in 1965 *gasp!*) and Daewoo (founded in 1967 *double gasp!*). By the way, what have those two privately owned companies ever given back to the South Korean tax-payers who funded them in the first place, besides overpriced, low-quality crap to offset their high-quality, underpriced foreign sales?
It will never be enough for Koreans. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
| 1) I haven't read anything about the lifespans so I can't really say anything about that, though I'd be extremely surprised if lifespans truly "doubled". |
Before the introduction of modern medicine by the Korean Empire government in the early 20th century, the average life expectancy for Korean males was 24 and for females 26 years.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon#Society
for 1938 gives male life expectancy of 47.20
and female life expectancy of 50.59
http://economics.mit.edu/files/2130
The introduction of modern medicine and much improved sanitary conditions had much to do with this. But the late Choseon Dynasty was so backwards and isolationist that Koreans really had no where to go but up.
| Quote: |
| 2) The Empress of Korea was assassinated as well as most members of her court. Many yangbans in Korea were forced to flee to Manchuria. |
If you look at the political, economic and military leadership of South Korea after the Japanese occupation, it was dominated by Koreans with ties to the Japanese.
Furthermore, while many Koreans courageously rebelled against the Japanese, many also disdained the corrupt Choseon.
| Quote: |
| 3) Japan has made one apology that I know of. And I'd be fine with that if it weren't for the fact that the hawkish current government has done a full 180 with several members of government full out denying the Japanese atrocities. Call me near-sighted and stupid, but I feel that those actions completely nullify the original apology. And the Japanese never apologized for forced prostitution. |
There's been more than one high level apology. In addition billions were given in terms of economic compensation back in the 1960s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
Did they go far enough? I think so, but many victims disagree.
Still, when As of 2010, 24% of South Koreans still feel that Japan has never apologized for its colonial rule, while another 58% believe Japan has not apologized sufficiently.[4] it's a hard climate to work with.
I really feel that there is nothing the Japanese could do to truly apologize. The majority of Koreans will just not accept it.
Koreans identity unfortunately is tied to victim hood. Take away this identity and then the Koreans have to look inward and that's a big issue.
Moreover, when the Japanese have made genuine apologies they were immediately rebuffed by the Koreans political establishment and media.
You just can work with people in this situation and it's understandable as to why some hard-line Japanese would in-turn react in an equally childish manner and take back the apologies.
| Quote: |
4) I agree. The situation in North Korea is bad, but what can be done? There are SK citizens who help NK citizens escape. My cousins tutor former NK nationals in English so that they can better adapt to SK. My uncle donates money every year to various organizations that help NK citizens. What do you do to help?
Sure what my relatives do may be more than what most in SK do, but the truth is that nothing can be done that could potentially lead to war. The latest Pentagon report I read stated that in the even of a war, 1 million people would die in the first 24 hours. |
I applaud your family members efforts.
But I was here in 2002 and 2006 when you had millions of Koreans take the streets in protest of the Americans. I've also had to endure the propaganda on a large scale through the media and personal encounters on relatively trivial issues like Dokdo and the East Sea.
Where is the similar outrage to North Korea?
You want to talk about sexual slavery? It's going on right now in the North!
You want to talk about human rights violations? It's going on right now in the North!
You want to talk about land disputes? It's going on right now with the North?
Where are the priorities in this country? Clean up your own god-damned house before you go after others.
And finally, why don't we see the same anger in South Korea against the Chinese?
Because Koreans are scared of them and the Japanese are an easy target to humiliate.
It's cowardice and I can't respect it. Simple as that. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
| The Holocaust was an atrocity, but the argument could be made that the Japanese war crimes were as bad, if not worse. The Nazis did not partake in massive amounts of biological testing |
What? |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| sml7285 wrote: |
| The Holocaust was an atrocity, but the argument could be made that the Japanese war crimes were as bad, if not worse. The Nazis did not partake in massive amounts of biological testing |
What? |
You realize that the Japanese equivalent, Unit 731, likely killed an order of magnitude more innocents and prisoners with their human experimentation? While we'll never know the true numbers, you can likely add a zero to the Nazi death toll to get to the Japanese one. So in the end, it depends on what you'd define as "massive."
But while the Nazi doctors were prosecuted for their crimes, "many of the scientists involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine." |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
| sml7285 wrote: |
3) Japan has made one apology that I know of. And I'd be fine with that if it weren't for the fact that the hawkish current government has done a full 180 with several members of government full out denying the Japanese atrocities. Call me near-sighted and stupid, but I feel that those actions completely nullify the original apology. And the Japanese never apologized for forced prostitution.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
Every time Japan apologizes, "it's not good enough" or "they are insincere". Nevermind that Korea officially accepted reparations in 1965 which it in turn used to boost its economy for its drive to become the economic powerhouse that it is today. In fact, South Korea said it would handle the distribution of compensation to South Korean citizens itself, and then instead used the money to build up companies like Hyundai (which magically began operating outside of South Korea in 1965 *gasp!*) and Daewoo (founded in 1967 *double gasp!*). By the way, what have those two privately owned companies ever given back to the South Korean tax-payers who funded them in the first place, besides overpriced, low-quality crap to offset their high-quality, underpriced foreign sales?
It will never be enough for Koreans. |
Never once did I say that Japan should continue to financially "compensate" Korea or Koreans for the crimes they committed. No amount of money can ever make up for what happened.
That being said, until every single person who was affected by their atrocities passes away, the country should continue to apologize. Honestly.
How many of you guys have memories of talking to or hanging out with a grandfather? I never got a chance meet or talk to my paternal grandfather. He suffered from heart problems for years after being forced to work in a munitions factory and passed away a month after I was born.
Do I constantly blame the government of Japan? No. But it grinds my gears when I hear anyone who tries to say the country of Japan has done "enough". I'm not making an argument for or against East Sea/Sea of Korea/Sea of Japan, compensation, Dokdo, etc. What I am saying is that regardless of all those other things, there is no amount of apologizing, groveling, etc that will ever fully make up for the war crimes the Japanese committed. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| everything-is-everything wrote: |
| sml7285 wrote: |
| 1) I haven't read anything about the lifespans so I can't really say anything about that, though I'd be extremely surprised if lifespans truly "doubled". |
Before the introduction of modern medicine by the Korean Empire government in the early 20th century, the average life expectancy for Korean males was 24 and for females 26 years.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon#Society
. |
Key words here are the KOREAN Empire. Not the Japanese. The original claim was that the Japanese occupation doubled life spans...whereas it would seem that modern medicine introduced by the Korean Empire was the cause. |
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