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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
| Atwood sounds like certain Western expats in Asia who insist they're right because they say so and the like, and can get nasty when someone brings to light their logical fallacies. Like I said, I'm neither a Korea hater nor apologist but I guess if knowledge doesn't require comparison, then North Korea can say it's a prosperous and powerful country and demand that it be accepted as truth. |
Where did I get nasty? And where did I use a logical fallacy? The comparison is the logical fallacy as is the addition of the U.S. to the conversation. They are red herrings. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
The issue with your stance atwood is that when people start talking about political corruption and quantify it (it is the most corruption, it is more corrupted than...) then that opens the door to and in fact requires comparison. I think that this is simply what Urban did.
So when you said "corruption is as Korean as Kimchi" that quantified what you feel is the level of corruption in Korea. You statement means you think corruption is common place in Korea. Well guess what, Korea does not operate in a bubble and state corruption IS something that is compared all the time in order to measure its true extent.
Doing that does not mean anyone is saying Korea does not have corruption, in fact that is not what Urban was doing at all. What he did however, did slow down (just a little) the rush to judge by some in here because when you introduce facts into a discussion, oddly, those people who prefer to toss about unfounded bash comments find it harder to do so.... |
Knowledge doesn't require comparison. Your whole thesis is wrong. I don't have to compare the temperature to that of every other locality on the planet to know whether it's hot or cold or whether the sky is clear or cloudy.
That corruption is compared doesn't have any bearing on how corrupt Korea is. And you've added the modality of "state" corruption, to what end I don't know since corruption exists beyond the "state."
Your belief that I'm quantifying anything is also wrong. Corruption is interwoven into the fabric of Korean culture. |
 You're rather proud of belonging to the school of 'If I state it over and over again then I can railroad through a pseudo truth that everybody must accept although it isn't actually true.'
Are you American? If you are, you should have failed your country's history as a school/university subject. Corruption is supposedly now 'inbuilt' into the 'fabric' of Korean culture? Do you know any history of any countries in the world, particularly southern European countries as well as Asian countries?
Corruption in ruling regimes/governments of all persuasions has been a large component of most countries' histories. As I said before, it's just manifested differently in other cultures and the fact that you gave no thought whatsoever to the well documented relationship of politicians of all political persuasions with corporations and their lobbyists which has resulted in some appalling situations that have no place in a democracy shows how 'normal' the payola for politicians is seen although in fact it is corruption purely and simply.
Corruption has a well documented history in the US. The 19th century and early to mid 20th century in the USA were the centuries of the robber barons, payola to politicians, the banker takeover of the US Government's finances in order to clear the way for a minority to influence the laws of the land so as to enrich themselves further, the introduction of a tax system that spared the wealthy/millionaires and started the process of leeching from ordinary people to subsidise the wealthy/millionaires' financial piracy, the corruption of Wall Street that led to the deliberate collapse of the stock market and again consolidation of wealth into the hands of a minority etc etc.
Yes - this is still happening in the US. It's called institutionalised corruption and is epitomised in Obama's govt by Goldman Sachs personnel influencing key financial decisions while their criminals are still doing business in the US and elsewhere. No prosecutions of the banksters have taken place under Obama's government - the protection of these criminals is corrupt and reflects systematic corruption in the US.
The financial 'City of London' (there are actually two separate city of London entities and mayors) is another example. We hear about the Cayman Islands being a major money launderer but did you know that the financial City of London also has a major role in facilitating the laundering of dirty money from all over the world? You're probably too lazy to do any research but the billions of won in Mr Noh's son's bank account looks like small change compared to what the financial city of London gets up to and what UK politicians hide from the public regarding their links to this parasitical entity. |
And none of what you posted, "well documented" though it MAY be(elsewhere rather than in your post), has anything to do with Korea.
You're using a "pseudo" argument. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
[q. But a few highly publicized cases can't cover up all the many, many others, big and small.
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Link to prove these many many others?
Got anything at all that is somewhat reliable? |
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sojusucks
Joined: 31 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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It would be nice to have a link to the OECD statistics.
Here is the ARC website for South Korea:
http://www.acrc.go.kr/eng_index.html |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:22 am Post subject: |
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But we are not all from the U.S. are we? (yeah, yeah, pedantic reply, but I thought you would enjoy the irony). Don't keep confusing the USA with Western culture/democracy. You keep talking like they are the same.
Look at the top of the list and tell me if 'Western' countries dominate. Although I think I heard a crowd pass-by my window chanting "we're number 22" |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
[q. But a few highly publicized cases can't cover up all the many, many others, big and small.
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Link to prove these many many others?
Got anything at all that is somewhat reliable? |
Anyone who has lived in Korea for a length of time would have proof of such corruption. Look at your own experience and if you've been paying attention and have been a part of what's happening around you, you'll have seen it. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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That chart is titled Confidence in Social Institutions, related, again, to the "perception" of corruption. It's also included as a part of social cohesion, in which homogeneous nations, such as Korea, would naturally score high. You say you deal in facts, so why do you mislabel the chart?
As for the U.S., which you've got on the brain, considering the current situation there, it's no surprise confidence is low. Look at how many posters here have no trouble expressing a complete disdain for the U.S. media (more a kneejerk response than a thoughtfully taken position). What's interesting is that the UK, with its many problems, scores as high as it does. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Atwood sounds like certain Western expats in Asia who insist they're right because they say so and the like, and can get nasty when someone brings to light their logical fallacies. Like I said, I'm neither a Korea hater nor apologist but I guess if knowledge doesn't require comparison, then North Korea can say it's a prosperous and powerful country and demand that it be accepted as truth. |
Where did I get nasty? And where did I use a logical fallacy? The comparison is the logical fallacy as is the addition of the U.S. to the conversation. They are red herrings. |
No, the logical fallacy was the False Analogy that you introduced.
"Corruption is as Korean as gimchi."
Gimchi is a uniquely Korean food. Therefore, by using that statement, you are claiming that corruption is a uniquely Korean phenomenon. Therefore, the only logical course of action for those who disagree is to falsify your basic tenet by bringing in statistics that show it is NOT a uniquely Korean phenomenon - i.e. comparisons with other countries. As soon as they can prove corruption happens in other countries (and to an even greater extent) then your whole opinion falls down. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
But we are not all from the U.S. are we? (yeah, yeah, pedantic reply, but I thought you would enjoy the irony). Don't keep confusing the USA with Western culture/democracy. You keep talking like they are the same.
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I always love how in these "Western" debates, whenever something positive, like innovation, is mentioned, no one hesitates to point to American stuff like movies, Tech, military equipment, American democratic concepts, etc.
But whenever something bad is there and America does poorly, you always here the Commonwealther crowd say "But America doesn't represent the West!".
Can't have it both ways. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:57 am Post subject: |
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I always love how in these "Western" debates, whenever something positive, like innovation, is mentioned, no one hesitates to point to American stuff like movies, Tech, military equipment, American democratic concepts, etc.
But whenever something bad is there and America does poorly, you always here the Commonwealther crowd say "But America doesn't represent the West!".
Can't have it both ways |
Utter rubbish. Most 'Commonwealthers' as you call them have no desire to take credit for, or associate themselves with anything American. Negative or positive. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Be fair Steelrails, I have always made the statement, directly to you, not to do that. I am consistent. I think I may have argued for the scientific method, is that not OK?
The list compares Korea to OECD countries, that was the discussion. UM wanted to somehow suggest that the US is someplace low, therefore Korea is doing OK. I dunno, some weird sort of equivalence by proxy, I think there must be a venn that shows the logical fallacy.
And the OP was clear in comparing OECD. Apologists chime in with, well, we are doing better than the USA. But coming like, way down the list is not equivalent to top 5. No, 22nd or 23rd place is not the same at all. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
Be fair Steelrails, I have always made the statement, directly to you, not to do that. I am consistent. I think I may have argued for the scientific method, is that not OK?
The list compares Korea to OECD countries, that was the discussion. UM wanted to somehow suggest that the US is someplace low, therefore Korea is doing OK. I dunno, some weird sort of equivalence by proxy, I think there must be a venn that shows the logical fallacy.
And the OP was clear in comparing OECD. Apologists chime in with, well, we are doing better than the USA. But coming like, way down the list is not equivalent to top 5. No, 22nd or 23rd place is not the same at all. |
Okay, you have a fair point. In this case specifically that's pretty true. I was more referring to the general phenomenon.
I do think sometimes we get a bit muddled in rankings. A lot of times in these OECD rankings the difference between say, 8 and 24 is not THAT great. However I think in this case its pretty clear that Korea has a ways to go. |
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