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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| If the US leaves Korea, China comes in. That's not just hearsay, that's a fact. Only deluded people, and propaganda from mainland China will tell you otherwise. |
Dude, its not 1923 anymore.
If what you were saying were true, Mongolia, SE Asia, and much of the 'Stans in Central Asia would be under the Chinese boot.
It's the 21st century.
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| Korean women would have no rights without US influence. They have few anyway) |
Oh please.
First off, ideologically, Communist systems were more progressive in terms of race and gender discrimination, though in practice, much like democratic-capitalist regimes, things weren't ideal.
Second, seeing as how Park Geun Hye might be the next president here, and S. Korea in 25 years of democracy would do what the US has failed to do in over 200, claims of "lack of gender rights" ring a tad hollow.
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| Those guys were just trying to do their jobs |
Yes and no. They were doing their jobs in investigating a truck stopped outside a military base. But all it would have taken is a half ounce of common sense to see that a bunch of guitar tab books and saxamaphones being offloaded into the guy's own store was no threat and just move along.
Heck doing their job would have been setting up safety cones and directing traffic while the shopkeeper unloaded their stuff.
Law enforcement is also there to serve the public.
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| If those were Chinese military police, they could have raped those women. Lets not forget the comfort women Japan had for themselves when they occupied Korea and China. |
Yes, because its still 1945. I could say "If those were US MPs they would have told the negroes to use the back entrance and sent the Japs to the camps!" |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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You're adamant there's a big difference between 1923 and 2012. Yes, and no.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Law enforcement is also there to serve the public.
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
If people want to lose their right to record injustice, that's the way to do it. Being a dick getting up in peoples faces like that. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| If South Koreans wanted the US out then they would vote for politicians who want them out as well. |
I highly doubt that'll happen anytime soon even with a leftist in power.
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Are you talking about the relatively archaic state of the ROK's Attack Helicopter force and ground attack aircraft? Or specialized Light Armored Vehicles specialized in Anti-Tank roles and the like?
I've noticed that too when looking through Orders of Battle and equipment lists
One of my friends worked as a KATUSA and worked on Cobras he said the Americans were pretty touchy about the Apaches and said that there were concerns over ROK access. Course this was about 5-6 years ago and things may have changed... |
I did hear some talk of Korea trying to acquire AH-64s in the near future but don't know any details. We really need to update those Cobra fleets. |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:54 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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Just a point of clarification. . .
[quote="Steelrails"]
| Quote: |
Yes and no. They were doing their jobs in investigating a truck stopped outside a military base. But all it would have taken is a half ounce of common sense to see that a bunch of guitar tab books and saxamaphones being offloaded into the guy's own store was no threat and just move along.
Heck doing their job would have been setting up safety cones and directing traffic while the shopkeeper unloaded their stuff.
Law enforcement is also there to serve the public. |
Stopping this guy had nothing to do with a perceived threat from the contents of the vehicle. Rather the area he was parked is a designated pedestrian zone. The strip of bars clubs and restaurants frequented mainly by military personnel. The whole strip is over 10 meters across and the shop owner was in no danger of impeding the foot traffic either. They were overly legalistic considering Korea's common parking practice and I can only assume were offended by his disregard for their interference -justified by their complete lack of actual authority over him.
Again, Town patrol is in no way mandated to do anything except police military people. While this may often coincide with the public good, maintaining the public good is not their mandate. They simply over stepped their bounds. What ever they were doing here, and regardless of their intent, it was not their job. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Well in their defense, if I noticed a big truck pull up next to the gates and some people scurry out, and I was on patrol, I might take a gander. And I might forget the line and start doing the Irish Cop "Move along, let's get this crate out of here" and then it would degenerate from there. What can you do? |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:17 am Post subject: |
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The music store is about 3 blocks away from the gate itself. There are regularly vehicles parked just outside the gate however to be clear this music store is a significant distance from the base entrance and in the middle of a bustling commercial strip which would see lots of people businesses and vehicles in between.
I'm reluctant to say nothing, for fear of all the theoretical examples that might be given, but there is little about a truck (was it actually a truck?) that could arouse suspicions in this area; it is absolutely, in now way out of the ordinary. It is not like the main gate is significantly distant from the commercial strip and so vehicles loading and unloading much closer is a regularity. There would have been many cars and trucks much closer to the gates and other businesses. In short any perceived threat of terrorism is a hard sell.
This article makes it clear, parking is not the purview of Town Patrol.
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/541846.html |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:27 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| K1020 wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
I'm tired of some of the disrespectful arguments. . .
It sickens me to see some US general guy having to bow because a Korean shop owner was being a d-bag.
And I'm all for freedom of speech and being able to record someone with your camera, but those Korean guys including a few K-bitches. (Korean women would have no rights without US influence. They have few anyway) getting right up in the face of the military police makes me cringe. If they got knocked out on the pavement, they'd deserve it. |
First, Town Patrol completely overstepped its mandate which is why people were protesting their actions, and why the USFK commander apologized. They were right to do it.
Second, using such a misogynist term in a statement concerned with women's rights comes off as uniquely colonialist.
Third, the whole point of Town Patrol is to catch delinquent soldiers before the Korean police do; not to police the Shinchang district. The history of western imperialism or why America operates bases here is generally inconsequential to this incident, so to is the guys attitude towards Town Patrol. T.P. has no jurisdiction regarding non-military personnel and it is a credit to the generally smooth operations around K-55 that they have not been charged formally. |
+1. The main point of having MPs is to make sure servicemen don't f-up and to drag unruly soldiers back to base before they create an international incident. Ironic.
They're not supposed to be there to police the local population (In this particular situation). Regardless of whether or not the shop-owner was wrong to act as he did, the MPs who tried to arrest him were way out of line. |
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NilesQ
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:57 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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[quote="pegasus64128"]I'm tired of some of the disrespectful arguments I've read here. Like:
The US shouldn't be in Korea etc. [quote]
This mentality is the problem. How is suggesting that the USA shouldn't be maintaining a large military presence in another country disrespectful?
You're with us or you're with them! Forget logic. Forget opportunity cost of resources. It is disrespectful to disagree.
And to those who bring up polls about Korean opinion of the alliance with the US, being allied with and having large military presence on your soil are not necessarily one in the same. You can be allies without having them maintain a large presence on the ground. It isn't those 30,000 troops that keep the North and China fromm coming over the wall. It is the knowledge that the Korean alliance with the US and the rest of the western world would ensure a massive war afterward.
The question that should be posed is a clear "Do you think that the USA should still have several military bases and 30,000 troops in Korea today?" I think most would say no. There is certainly an age divide on this. People old enough to remember the Korean war are much more pro american presence. However, the younger generations, those born after the cease-fire, seem to view the US Army as an occupier rather than a liberator. Again, just my experience gained through conversations I've had with Koreans during the 5 years I spent there. Those were the Sunshine Policy years of Kim Dae Jung also. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| Quote: |
This mentality is the problem. How is suggesting that the USA shouldn't be maintaining a large military presence in another country disrespectful?
You're with us or you're with them! Forget logic. Forget opportunity cost of resources. It is disrespectful to disagree.
And to those who bring up polls about Korean opinion of the alliance with the US, being allied with and having large military presence on your soil are not necessarily one in the same. You can be allies without having them maintain a large presence on the ground. It isn't those 30,000 troops that keep the North and China fromm coming over the wall. It is the knowledge that the Korean alliance with the US and the rest of the western world would ensure a massive war afterward.
The question that should be posed is a clear "Do you think that the USA should still have several military bases and 30,000 troops in Korea today?" I think most would say no. There is certainly an age divide on this. People old enough to remember the Korean war are much more pro american presence. However, the younger generations, those born after the cease-fire, seem to view the US Army as an occupier rather than a liberator. Again, just my experience gained through conversations I've had with Koreans during the 5 years I spent there. Those were the Sunshine Policy years of Kim Dae Jung also. |
I don't think the US military should be here in such large numbers, but that's not the point. The point, as I already stated is that they are here, at the permission of the Korean government. While the military police may have been out of line, those people were also out of line in antagonizing them and being disrespectful. It's also a joke that they are not in more plain attire. How are they supposed to ignore the disrespect when they're wearing their uniforms.
Some Korean people, like their Western counterparts, don't seem to understand the fact that the 2 Koreas are still technically at war. Most if not all of them woke up to this fact after the naval bombardment episode if not the sinking of the Cheonan. You unfortunately have not...
Last edited by pegasus64128 on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:37 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
And to those who bring up polls about Korean opinion of the alliance with the US, being allied with and having large military presence on your soil are not necessarily one in the same. You can be allies without having them maintain a large presence on the ground. It isn't those 30,000 troops that keep the North and China fromm coming over the wall. It is the knowledge that the Korean alliance with the US and the rest of the western world would ensure a massive war afterward.
The question that should be posed is a clear "Do you think that the USA should still have several military bases and 30,000 troops in Korea today?" I think most would say no. There is certainly an age divide on this. People old enough to remember the Korean war are much more pro american presence. However, the younger generations, those born after the cease-fire, seem to view the US Army as an occupier rather than a liberator. Again, just my experience gained through conversations I've had with Koreans during the 5 years I spent there. Those were the Sunshine Policy years of Kim Dae Jung also. |
Don't like the poll's question? Why not do what TUM did and find a poll that DOES fit your description and post it to back up your assertion. Until then, I would say TUM has a stronger argument than you do. You can tell us how many Koreans you've talked to that think the US should pull its troops out, but what does that really mean? If I ask any resident of my current locale if Obama or Romney is better, nearly every one is going to say Obama and think I'm crazy for even asking. Go to many college campuses, pretty much ditto. Does that reflect the US as a whole? Of course not. |
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NilesQ
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:52 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| NilesQ wrote: |
And to those who bring up polls about Korean opinion of the alliance with the US, being allied with and having large military presence on your soil are not necessarily one in the same. You can be allies without having them maintain a large presence on the ground. It isn't those 30,000 troops that keep the North and China fromm coming over the wall. It is the knowledge that the Korean alliance with the US and the rest of the western world would ensure a massive war afterward.
The question that should be posed is a clear "Do you think that the USA should still have several military bases and 30,000 troops in Korea today?" I think most would say no. There is certainly an age divide on this. People old enough to remember the Korean war are much more pro american presence. However, the younger generations, those born after the cease-fire, seem to view the US Army as an occupier rather than a liberator. Again, just my experience gained through conversations I've had with Koreans during the 5 years I spent there. Those were the Sunshine Policy years of Kim Dae Jung also. |
Don't like the poll's question? Why not do what TUM did and find a poll that DOES fit your description and post it to back up your assertion. Until then, I would say TUM has a stronger argument than you do. You can tell us how many Koreans you've talked to that think the US should pull its troops out, but what does that really mean? If I ask any resident of my current locale if Obama or Romney is better, nearly every one is going to say Obama and think I'm crazy for even asking. Go to many college campuses, pretty much ditto. Does that reflect the US as a whole? Of course not. |
August 2005, Gallup Korea / Chosun Ilbo
Survey of 833 individuals born between 1980 and 1989.
■In a war between the United States and North Korea, whose side would you take? North Korea, 65.9%; United States, 21.8%; undecided, 12.3%.
■Ironically, when the same respondents were asked where they�d prefer live if they lived abroad, 17.9% named Australia, 16.8% the U.S., and 15.3% Japan. �Fourteen nations including equally uninviting Iraq and Iran did better than North Korea by attracting one respondent each.�
■The conservative Chosun Ilbo, South Korea�s largest-circulation daily, tried to put a bright face on it, calling the results an indicator of �pragmatic patriotism.�
My comments are not a judgement of America's contributions in Korea. I'm saying that based on my experience that if you asked flat out "Should USA leave Korea?" most Koreans would respond yes. Polls are rediculous and we dont know how they were conducted. They say what the person taking them wants them to say. However, the fact that they got a significant percentage of respondants to say they'd side with the North over the US leads me to believe that thinking the USA shouldn't be here but still maintain the alliance wouldnt be a stretch. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:06 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
August 2005, Gallup Korea / Chosun Ilbo
Survey of 833 individuals born between 1980 and 1989.
... |
2005 - highly skewed - at the height of the boom, long before the Leyman Bros. collapse, and a very selective choice for you to pick.
As for most young people in Korea - it's well known that they are shielded from the past by their parents, and left to make up their own minds, based on racism, xenophobia, and propaganda (much of it from China would be my guess).
People here would have been returned to the dark ages without foreign intervention and then incorporated inevitably into Korean-flavored China. It would be a cold dark place too - no Hyundais being exported all over the world and you wouldn't be teaching here either maybe.
I'm not saying SK would be any worse or better under Chinese rule - just different. It would be more like the north East of China economically I think and it would be united. United in poverty. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
| ■In a war between the United States and North Korea, whose side would you take? North Korea, 65.9%; United States, 21.8%; undecided, 12.3%. |
Assuming the question is translated accurately, this is not the same as what you were claiming, not even close. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| NilesQ wrote: |
And to those who bring up polls about Korean opinion of the alliance with the US, being allied with and having large military presence on your soil are not necessarily one in the same. You can be allies without having them maintain a large presence on the ground. It isn't those 30,000 troops that keep the North and China fromm coming over the wall. It is the knowledge that the Korean alliance with the US and the rest of the western world would ensure a massive war afterward.
The question that should be posed is a clear "Do you think that the USA should still have several military bases and 30,000 troops in Korea today?" I think most would say no. There is certainly an age divide on this. People old enough to remember the Korean war are much more pro american presence. However, the younger generations, those born after the cease-fire, seem to view the US Army as an occupier rather than a liberator. Again, just my experience gained through conversations I've had with Koreans during the 5 years I spent there. Those were the Sunshine Policy years of Kim Dae Jung also. |
Don't like the poll's question? Why not do what TUM did and find a poll that DOES fit your description and post it to back up your assertion. Until then, I would say TUM has a stronger argument than you do. You can tell us how many Koreans you've talked to that think the US should pull its troops out, but what does that really mean? If I ask any resident of my current locale if Obama or Romney is better, nearly every one is going to say Obama and think I'm crazy for even asking. Go to many college campuses, pretty much ditto. Does that reflect the US as a whole? Of course not. |
August 2005, Gallup Korea / Chosun Ilbo
Survey of 833 individuals born between 1980 and 1989.
■In a war between the United States and North Korea, whose side would you take? North Korea, 65.9%; United States, 21.8%; undecided, 12.3%.
■Ironically, when the same respondents were asked where they�d prefer live if they lived abroad, 17.9% named Australia, 16.8% the U.S., and 15.3% Japan. �Fourteen nations including equally uninviting Iraq and Iran did better than North Korea by attracting one respondent each.�
■The conservative Chosun Ilbo, South Korea�s largest-circulation daily, tried to put a bright face on it, calling the results an indicator of �pragmatic patriotism.�
My comments are not a judgement of America's contributions in Korea. I'm saying that based on my experience that if you asked flat out "Should USA leave Korea?" most Koreans would respond yes. Polls are rediculous and we dont know how they were conducted. They say what the person taking them wants them to say. However, the fact that they got a significant percentage of respondants to say they'd side with the North over the US leads me to believe that thinking the USA shouldn't be here but still maintain the alliance wouldnt be a stretch. |
You are using a segment of the population which is not representative of the population as a whole. Furthermore the polls I posted were about the military leaving or staying not about what side people would pick. And third your reasoning is flawed. How could they side with the North but still think the alliance with the U.S could be maintained? If anything logic dictates that those who would side with the North...WOULDN'T want the U.S to have an alliance with South Korea.
As I said polls consistently show a huge majority of Koreans overall support having the U.S troops here. Yeah polls vary but when they are THAT consistent you can pretty much gauge the overall tone of the place. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| Quote: |
This mentality is the problem. How is suggesting that the USA shouldn't be maintaining a large military presence in another country disrespectful?
You're with us or you're with them! Forget logic. Forget opportunity cost of resources. It is disrespectful to disagree.
And to those who bring up polls about Korean opinion of the alliance with the US, being allied with and having large military presence on your soil are not necessarily one in the same. You can be allies without having them maintain a large presence on the ground. It isn't those 30,000 troops that keep the North and China fromm coming over the wall. It is the knowledge that the Korean alliance with the US and the rest of the western world would ensure a massive war afterward.
The question that should be posed is a clear "Do you think that the USA should still have several military bases and 30,000 troops in Korea today?" I think most would say no. There is certainly an age divide on this. People old enough to remember the Korean war are much more pro american presence. However, the younger generations, those born after the cease-fire, seem to view the US Army as an occupier rather than a liberator. Again, just my experience gained through conversations I've had with Koreans during the 5 years I spent there. Those were the Sunshine Policy years of Kim Dae Jung also. |
I don't think the US military should be here in such large numbers, but that's not the point. The point, as I already stated is that they are here, at the permission of the Korean government. While the military police may have been out of line, those people were also out of line in antagonizing them and being disrespectful. It's also a joke that they are not in more plain attire. How are they supposed to ignore the disrespect when they're wearing their uniforms.
Some Korean people, like their Western counterparts, don't seem to understand the fact that the 2 Koreas are still technically at war. Most if not all of them woke up to this fact after the naval bombardment episode if not the sinking of the Cheonan. You unfortunately have not... |
The MP's own behavior disrespected their uniforms more than anything a Korean civilian could do. |
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