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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mike1two wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
So wait, the guy who wrote this compares an elite test-prep academy in a prestigious part of Seoul to some small University in the US? He's also comparing how Korean teens study right before the biggest test of their lives to how freshmen react to a random talk about something that probably doesn't interest them in the least. How on earth is that comparable? Either find a similar elite school in the US, or come to a Korean university. Apples and Oranges.
It's funny that the prof apparently told him he was only there for 5 kids. In a Korean university, only those 5 kids would have shown up. The other 15 would have turned up the day after the final begging the prof for an A because they're on scholarship and if they fail the class blah blah blah. Good thing, as the author assures us, Koreans don't whine. As anyone who's spent 5 minutes in Korea can attest, Koreans never whine. Nope, not at all.
As for the electronic devices: most of my elementary students have their phones out and try to use them at every opportunity. I've tried to talk with my school about it, but they say they have a 'right' to have them. They're moms actually call them in the middle of class and they answer. I've tried to stop them in the past, only to hear about complaints from parents. This is in a public school. What's worse, a few young adults trying to discretely use their devices during a college course, or a room full of pre-teens having free access to them all day?
I'm not trying to insult Koreans or anything here. I'm merely pointing out that there are just as many negatives, and positives, in both spheres. I agree with the above poster, both places have problems but you can't just look at a certain set of issues and declare one place better than the other. I mean, I could take the part about measuring their hair and declare that Americans are more independent, and value substance over trivial appearances. But I would never be so trite.
American adults have been decrying the fall of education and the laziness of the younger generation for approximately forever. My grandparents said it about their kids, my parents said it about us, we say it about kids these days. And you know what happens? DNA still gets mapped, the internet still gets developed and diseases still get cured. Jersey Shore and facebook aren't making American kids any dumber these days than rock music or Saturday Morning Cartoons were a few years ago. I'm not going to listen to one old prof at some random university complain about his students and decide the "Asians" are coming to get us.
And let's talk about those "Asians". Countries like Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong--and now China--have really pushed in the last half century to become strong economic forces in the world. But what exactly have these countries actually contributed to the modern world, independently? Did they invent major computer advances? Did they cure devastating diseases? Did they lead new space exploration? No, they got really good at doing exactly what Western countries have been doing. They manufacture well, they have built nice city streets and built impressive sky scrapers. Don't get me wrong, they've gotten very good at these things and it's benefited their citizens immensely. But until they start actually innovating and leading human progress, I wouldn't worry too much about them surpassing anyone. How can they when they only know how to replicate?
Again, I'm not trying to insult Korea or anyone. I'm just saying that it's funny to think a bunch of kids studying for a test in a rich school is representative of how this country is charging its way to world supremacy. Tell that to the hoards of kids in the PC bang next door till the wee hours, or my students who think they deserve an A simply for showing up. And we should tell the young inventor of the social media movement and those kids who just put a Legoman into spaces using household items that all American kids are lazy good-for-nothings. |
According to Goldman Sachs, China and India will lead the way in tech innovation in the near future. Asians have been playing catch up but as you see with Asian Americans, the people brought up with an Asian-like work ethic combined with an education of independent thought are the ones that are going to lead the way.
I'm not sure about all this copying business that seems to be the knock on Asians on the white supremacist forums. Japan is a leading innovator of technology. China has been around for 5,000 years and has invented tons of things, even some things that some say enabled the Renaissance, namely a metal melting furnace. Wait until Korea and China reach the levels of wealth that Japan has and you'll see the same thing all over again. The thing is you can't teach brains. |
And who cares even if they don't.
It's great and wonderful when someone invents something new.
It's also great and wonderful when someone takes a product and makes it better than the original, to the point of being great, and then makes it affordable for everyone.
Props to the guy who invented the mp3 player. And props to the company that makes a better quality one. And props to the company that makes a very affordable one.
| Quote: |
| But what exactly have these countries actually contributed to the modern world, independently? Did they invent major computer advances? Did they cure devastating diseases? |
Most of them were trying to develop into first world countries so they could have the necessary capital to invest in R&D.
Going down the path of invention is a loser for a 2nd or 3rd world country in terms of return on investment and risk involved.
| Quote: |
| But until they start actually innovating and leading human progress, I wouldn't worry too much about them surpassing anyone. How can they when they only know how to replicate? |
I dunno, ask the Soviets and Americans who beat the Nazis with their jet planes and V-2 rockets and AK-47 predecessors.
An imperfect example but it goes to show that "being first" isn't everything.
In the end though, I agree that the author's article is a bit more than a tad suspect.
I have met Korean students here and back home that could slack with the best of them.
Last edited by Steelrails on Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mike1two wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
So wait, the guy who wrote this compares an elite test-prep academy in a prestigious part of Seoul to some small University in the US? He's also comparing how Korean teens study right before the biggest test of their lives to how freshmen react to a random talk about something that probably doesn't interest them in the least. How on earth is that comparable? Either find a similar elite school in the US, or come to a Korean university. Apples and Oranges.
It's funny that the prof apparently told him he was only there for 5 kids. In a Korean university, only those 5 kids would have shown up. The other 15 would have turned up the day after the final begging the prof for an A because they're on scholarship and if they fail the class blah blah blah. Good thing, as the author assures us, Koreans don't whine. As anyone who's spent 5 minutes in Korea can attest, Koreans never whine. Nope, not at all.
As for the electronic devices: most of my elementary students have their phones out and try to use them at every opportunity. I've tried to talk with my school about it, but they say they have a 'right' to have them. They're moms actually call them in the middle of class and they answer. I've tried to stop them in the past, only to hear about complaints from parents. This is in a public school. What's worse, a few young adults trying to discretely use their devices during a college course, or a room full of pre-teens having free access to them all day?
I'm not trying to insult Koreans or anything here. I'm merely pointing out that there are just as many negatives, and positives, in both spheres. I agree with the above poster, both places have problems but you can't just look at a certain set of issues and declare one place better than the other. I mean, I could take the part about measuring their hair and declare that Americans are more independent, and value substance over trivial appearances. But I would never be so trite.
American adults have been decrying the fall of education and the laziness of the younger generation for approximately forever. My grandparents said it about their kids, my parents said it about us, we say it about kids these days. And you know what happens? DNA still gets mapped, the internet still gets developed and diseases still get cured. Jersey Shore and facebook aren't making American kids any dumber these days than rock music or Saturday Morning Cartoons were a few years ago. I'm not going to listen to one old prof at some random university complain about his students and decide the "Asians" are coming to get us.
And let's talk about those "Asians". Countries like Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong--and now China--have really pushed in the last half century to become strong economic forces in the world. But what exactly have these countries actually contributed to the modern world, independently? Did they invent major computer advances? Did they cure devastating diseases? Did they lead new space exploration? No, they got really good at doing exactly what Western countries have been doing. They manufacture well, they have built nice city streets and built impressive sky scrapers. Don't get me wrong, they've gotten very good at these things and it's benefited their citizens immensely. But until they start actually innovating and leading human progress, I wouldn't worry too much about them surpassing anyone. How can they when they only know how to replicate?
Again, I'm not trying to insult Korea or anyone. I'm just saying that it's funny to think a bunch of kids studying for a test in a rich school is representative of how this country is charging its way to world supremacy. Tell that to the hoards of kids in the PC bang next door till the wee hours, or my students who think they deserve an A simply for showing up. And we should tell the young inventor of the social media movement and those kids who just put a Legoman into spaces using household items that all American kids are lazy good-for-nothings. |
According to Goldman Sachs, China and India will lead the way in tech innovation in the near future. Asians have been playing catch up but as you see with Asian Americans, the people brought up with an Asian-like work ethic combined with an education of independent thought are the ones that are going to lead the way.
I'm not sure about all this copying business that seems to be the knock on Asians on the white supremacist forums. Japan is a leading innovator of technology. China has been around for 5,000 years and has invented tons of things, even some things that some say enabled the Renaissance, namely a metal melting furnace. Wait until Korea and China reach the levels of wealth that Japan has and you'll see the same thing all over again. The thing is you can't teach brains. |
Well, there's no doubt that China and India will eventually lead the way in some things. My point was more towards the silly notion that somehow "Asians" are going to take over "American dominance" because they work harder. I find that line of thinking, which was introduced in the article in the OP, to be slightly racist or at least very general.
I completely agree that Japan has been very innovative and has played a role in shaping our modern world, and that's why I didn't include them with the other countries I mentioned. And you are also right in saying that China's 5000 years of history has left a hefty stamp on the world. However, I was talking about our modern society. No doubt it's gearing up, but I don't see them winning Nobel Prizes and solving global warming. There's a difference between having lots of scientists who are really good at doing things that are already being done, and actually developing people who innovate new things, or at least new ways of doing things.
My statement about Koreans copying, or to put it in my words "replicating", others is built on observations and a reading of modern history. I see free thinking and creativity cut short almost every day in my job at school. Repetition, information retention and conformity are valued more. This has really done well for Korea, it's gotten them to this level in a very short time. However, it's not going to cure cancer or invent the next internet (or facebook, for that matter).
I'm not saying this as a slight to Asia or to boost up Americans. The 20th century was the American century, after all, and they led many innovations by fostering a very free thinking population (which has it's own drawbacks--like mass shootings every other week, but that's for another time). My point is that's it's silly to think that this spirit has died in the US in a matter of one generation, while in Asia it's somehow been created in the same time frame. I could argue Korean kids have become just as lazy and complacent as their American counterparts due to the success of their parent's generation. So basically, anecdotal evidence is just that: story time. What's more telling is actual innovations coming from your country. And visiting a random college and seeing someone text during class, or listening to some old guy complain about the kids these days, won't tell you anything about what is actually going on in the world. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Koreans say "work hard". |
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| Moondoggy wrote: |
| [@happiness, dude i really hope you�re being totally sarcastic. you must realize that principal/vp/parents/district officials constantly evaluate your job performance to make sure that you are not a waste of tax money. you and many others on dave�s esl better start brushing up on burger flipping skills. |
When said evaluation consists of (at many places) knowing enough to hold the soju shot glass with two hands and bowing to the VP or Principal as they pour you one...I think most of us can get a big fat 'renewal stamp'
It's all about fitting in and not rocking the boat. Then again to be fair it's generally all about that in most places you work. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Koreans say "work hard". |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| [No, one of the main differences between American and Korean university setting, is that the professors along with the academic system in America safeguard the integrity of the grades. So, an A usually really means something in an American university. |
This doesn't fit in with the vast number of threads you can find on Google about how grade inflation is such a problem with many U.S universities
http://www.gradeinflation.com/
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The author believes that the resurgence of grade inflation in the 1980s principally was caused by the emergence of a consumer-based culture in higher education. Students are paying more for a product every year, and increasingly they want and get the reward of a good grade for their purchase. In this culture, professors are not only compelled to grade easier, but also to water down course content. Both intellectual rigor and grading standards have weakened. The evidence for this is not merely anecdotal. Students are highly disengaged from learning, are studying less than ever, and are less literate. Yet grades continue to rise.
Internal university memos say much the same thing. For example, the chair of Yale's Course of Study Committee, Professor David Mayhew, wrote to Yale instructors in 2003, "Students who do exceptional work are lumped together with those who have merely done good work, and in some cases with those who have done merely adequate work.� In 2001, Dean Susan Pedersen wrote to the Harvard faculty:
"We rely on grades not only to distinguish among our students but also to motivate them and the Educational Policy Committee worries that by narrowing the grade differential between superior and routine work, grade inflation works against the pedagogical mission of the Faculty....While accepting the fact that the quality our students has improved over time, pressure to conform to the grading practices of one's peers, fears of being singled out or rendered unpopular as a 'tough grader,' and pressures from students were all regarded as contributory factors...." |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:02 am Post subject: Re: Koreans say "work hard". |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| [No, one of the main differences between American and Korean university setting, is that the professors along with the academic system in America safeguard the integrity of the grades. So, an A usually really means something in an American university. |
This doesn't fit in with the vast number of threads you can find on Google about how grade inflation is such a problem with many U.S universities
http://www.gradeinflation.com/
| Quote: |
The author believes that the resurgence of grade inflation in the 1980s principally was caused by the emergence of a consumer-based culture in higher education. Students are paying more for a product every year, and increasingly they want and get the reward of a good grade for their purchase. In this culture, professors are not only compelled to grade easier, but also to water down course content. Both intellectual rigor and grading standards have weakened. The evidence for this is not merely anecdotal. Students are highly disengaged from learning, are studying less than ever, and are less literate. Yet grades continue to rise.
Internal university memos say much the same thing. For example, the chair of Yale's Course of Study Committee, Professor David Mayhew, wrote to Yale instructors in 2003, "Students who do exceptional work are lumped together with those who have merely done good work, and in some cases with those who have done merely adequate work.� In 2001, Dean Susan Pedersen wrote to the Harvard faculty:
"We rely on grades not only to distinguish among our students but also to motivate them and the Educational Policy Committee worries that by narrowing the grade differential between superior and routine work, grade inflation works against the pedagogical mission of the Faculty....While accepting the fact that the quality our students has improved over time, pressure to conform to the grading practices of one's peers, fears of being singled out or rendered unpopular as a 'tough grader,' and pressures from students were all regarded as contributory factors...." |
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Certainly, grade inflation has been a problem in the US. However, it pales in comparison to how the relative grading scheme is done in Korea with 50% of the class being allowed to get A's even though in some cases their exam scores would be considered failing in the US.
Also, I might add that I really do not think grade inflation is a universal problem in that it does depend on the university and department. For example, Georgia Tech purposely flunks two thirds of the freshman class each year. Also, based on my own experiences, I really do not think grade inflation has affected certain departments much such as physics. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But what exactly have these countries actually contributed to the modern world, independently? Did they invent major computer advances? Did they cure devastating diseases? |
Most of them were trying to develop into first world countries so they could have the necessary capital to invest in R&D.
Going down the path of invention is a loser for a 2nd or 3rd world country in terms of return on investment and risk involved.
| Quote: |
| But until they start actually innovating and leading human progress, I wouldn't worry too much about them surpassing anyone. How can they when they only know how to replicate? |
I dunno, ask the Soviets and Americans who beat the Nazis with their jet planes and V-2 rockets and AK-47 predecessors.
An imperfect example but it goes to show that "being first" isn't everything.
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To your first point, I completely agree and that's what I was totally ineloquently trying to say. I really wasn't trying to insult any country, I was--very badly--saying what you summed up in a few sentences. So thanks for that. It's great for people to work very hard towards something, but you can't compare that work ethic to those that have already achieved those things. Korean children are just as susceptible to complacency in the face of the success of their parents as Americans.
To your second point, could we also ask WWII-era Japan how important it is to be first to build something? It might not be everything, but it's a very very big thing. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| The whole grade inflation thing brings back memories of a few years ago when I was on the evaluation committee for hiring the first wave of K teachers for TEE in Seoul. We were told specifically how many should get an A, a B, and a C percentage-wise when scoring. Needless to say that no one was to fail, and that the scoring should be top-mid heavy with few Cs given. There were some great demo lessons that deserved an A, a fair number of pretty good ones that deserved a B, a few that should have gotten a C, and a slew of ones that deserved a failing grade. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Koreans say "work hard". |
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you don�t know what you�re talking about. in korea people already value you because of what language you speak and where you�re from.
Moondoggy [quote:]
Really? It might seem that way, but if you look closer at what's really going on, then ask yourself this question:
Do they value English speakers for their English or for how much money
they can make off of them?
If I'm not mistaken, the Korean gov't gives money to Public Schools to
host foreign teachers.
The schools do so because they want the money.
A good many of them don't want the FT at all and
couldn't care less about English education.
******************
i bet you never had a full time job before u moved to korea.
Moondoggy [quote:]
Well, think that if you want to. I had 15 years work experience before
going to Korea.
I'm not sure what the rest of your post was about, so I only responded to the above 2 points.
By the way, if you're looking for work. Forget Korea, forget the US, come to Canada. Plenty of jobs here.
Last edited by some waygug-in on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tideout
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Koreans say "work hard". |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Really? It might seem that way, but if you look closer at what's really going on, then ask yourself this question:
Do they value English speakers for their English or for how much money
they can make off of them?
If I'm not mistaken, the Korean gov't gives money to Public Schools to
host foreign teachers.
The schools do so because they want the money.
A good many of them don't want the FT at all and
couldn't care less about English education.
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I'd probably express this a little differently but when I was at a public school that I got along very well with I was told at one point, not too worry so much. In fact, English needed to be taught but it wasn't the centerpiece of the education at the school (in so many words). There was a teacher dedicated to teaching Japanese and another teacher dedicated to teaching Chinese. I was one of three different foreign language teachers there.
I'll take a broad shot at a few of the comments regarding the hiring of foreign teachers who also speak Korean. It goes with out saying that they can hire who they want to hire. It might also make any given administrator, co-teacher etc. at a school more comfortable. Having said that, it has little to nothing to do with better English education.
Any respected ESL cert program should give you an approach to teaching a class with a variety of speakers from other countries in the same classroom. In other words, you should have some idea of how to teach a class with a Korean, Brazilian and Romanian in the same classroom - the teachers multi-lingual abilities are not essential to the process. I honestly mostly see this argument in the Korean forums. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| This article has nothing to do with Korea and everything to do with brainwashing Americans to think they're not working hard enough. To drive the 'sense of entitlement' out of the 99%, leaving it to the 1% where it belongs. |
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