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"Freshman" - a highly offensive term?
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transmogrifier



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Transmorgifier,

Things change. Words change. Language usage changes. Whether or not these changes as you asked in your previous post depends a lot on what people think and how people want to use these words.

So, the answer you are going to get for me, is I don't know if that will happen or not.

But, you did not answer my previous question which is why are you afraid of these words changing? Why does it really matter to you?


I didn't answer because it was a stupid question, like me asking you "Why do you hate men so much, and why did you steal 50 bucks off me last week?"

What's that, you don't hate men and didn't steal from me? Stop avoiding my question: why?
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I did say I don't know if those words are going to change. If it were up to me, I'd say no, though I am somewhat intrigued by a change in the word of "husband." But, no, I would not actively pursue it.

Now, my question is not a bad question. My question is very important. Words are words. Why do you care if some people want to use words differently than their original meaning? It happens all the time. Do you think we should preserve the historic meaning of all words? Because that is what I hear you saying.

What is so dangerous about gender neutral language? What is so wrong with saying first year student instead of freshman? You haven't really answered these questions and I don't know how to proceed in this discussion unless we deal with these questions as well.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I did say I don't know if those words are going to change. If it were up to me, I'd say no, though I am somewhat intrigued by a change in the word of "husband." But, no, I would not actively pursue it.

Now, my question is not a bad question. My question is very important. Words are words. Why do you care if some people want to use words differently than their original meaning? It happens all the time. Do you think we should preserve the historic meaning of all words? Because that is what I hear you saying.

What is so dangerous about gender neutral language? What is so wrong with saying first year student instead of freshman? You haven't really answered these questions and I don't know how to proceed in this discussion unless we deal with these questions as well.
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transmogrifier



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are arguing about the motives behind the proactive removal of certain words from our language, not the evolution of language.
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NYC_Gal 2.0



Joined: 10 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:
NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
Unibrow wrote:
Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting


From another thread:
Unibrow wrote:
Bro, be careful getting married. I was married once to a woman similar to what you're describing. It was great for a while, but then she tried to get a divorce and take all my money. Luckily, I had the best lawyer in the state and shut her down, but just be careful.


Unlike some of these PUA artists in here I still respect women despite having a broken heart. Hard for some men to do, yes, but I realize the issues they face.


Being called a freshman is a non issue. If a school (or all schools) want to change the term to first years, they're free to do so. To say that we're being treated with disrespect by being called freshman is a bit of an overstatement. If we follow that line of reasoning, we'd start saying womyn instead of women as well. It's just silly. I'm all for equal choices in life, but sometimes people get out of hand with this type of thing.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think we are talking about the "removal" of words.

But, lets say the motivation is the gender neutrality of a word. What is wrong with that?
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

transmogrifier wrote:
The Cosmic Hum wrote:
transmogrifier wrote:
Unibrow wrote:
Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting

Explain to me as clearly as you can how the word "freshman" as used today rigs the world against women.

By the simple fact that you don't feel the obvious force behind the word 'man' in words that do/did in fact refer to men.
How you perceive the word is upsetting to those who do feel it..


Sorry, but that is a ridiculous line of reasoning.

A: This thing is wrong.
B: I don't think it's wrong.
A: The very fact you don't think it is wrong is what makes it wrong.

I call bullshit on that.

I'm not arguing that the reasoning is logical...in fact...it isn't...but that is the point.
I am assuming you are a man. Perhaps you are thinking too much...and not feeling enough.
Of course I can not logically defend this reasoning...and I am not suggesting that only women use this type of reasoning.
But this type of reasoning does exist, and I suspect it has some value.
I also have respect for it.
If they feel it...there could be something to it.
In this case...I agree with those that think the term is sexist...no doubt about it.
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transmogrifier



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
I don't think we are talking about the "removal" of words.

But, lets say the motivation is the gender neutrality of a word. What is wrong with that?


I've already covered that in a previous post, back when you had it stuck in your head that I was against UNC's right to do what they like.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said we were arguing about motives, so I responded to that.

Can you refresh our memory? What do you think is the motive or what do you think is the problem with the motive? To be honest, I am not really sure what you are arguing/discussing anymore.


Cosmic Hum,

Your argument about "feel" versus "logic" is interesting, though I am sure there will be plenty of people who will argue that nothing is quite so black and white.

But, it is an itneresting thought: some men (and some women) get caught up in the logic of whether a word choice is appropriate, where as some women (and some men) can "feel" the inappropiateness of a word choice.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell looks more like a prophet everyday. Real thinking is being shutdown by arguing over ideological fine points in the discourse. Dumbing down. Everything , even the most mundane becomes political. Reminds me of the Chinese when presented with the threat of a miltarily superior Britain expanding in Asia, spent more time arguing about which meeting hall would be the correct one to receive the barbarian ambassador than discussing the threat.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
I don't think we are talking about the "removal" of words.

But, lets say the motivation is the gender neutrality of a word. What is wrong with that?



Well, if you know anything about social linguistics: nothing wrong with that at all.
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NovaKart



Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if a very gender-neutral conscious person with a last name that ends in man has ever changed it. Like Goodman - Goodperson? Or if their last name ended in son, what could they do? Ericson - Ericchild?
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ajuma



Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh for heaven sakes. This is crazy!

Should we change "menstruation" to "womanstuation" or "personstuation"??? How about "mental" to "womantal" or "persontal"? If I come down with meningitis should I call it "personingitis"?

Honestly....
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: "Freshman" - a highly offensive term? Reply with quote

Zackback wrote:
The University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill has removed the word �freshman� from official university documents, citing as their reason an attempt to adopt more �gender inclusive language.�


[Facepalm] The United States really has lost it's mind.

I think they have a few more pressing problems.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And, what is the problem with gender neutral language?


We don't live in a gender-neutral world (thank god!), so why would we want to use gender-neutral language?
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