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Dodge7
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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 Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Waygeek wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| Waygeek wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| O Why are you trying to minimize the institutional oppression of whites in South Africa? |
The bloody cheek of this comment!!! Really, how dare you... |
Lol. You mad? Correct me if I'm wrong big boy. Pipe down. |
You are wrong in that descendants of colonists who viciously oppressed the natives have no right whatsoever to be complaining about subsequent treatment. It's not your land anyway, so if you have a problem, GTFO.
(Not to Korea, preferably). |
You're a fool.
So it's ok to kill the white people and oppress them NOW because it was done in the past? Should you murder the son of a father who murdered someone? Is that ok?
You're logic makes me think you have an IQ under 100. Honestly. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Dodge7 wrote: |
| Waygeek wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| Waygeek wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| O Why are you trying to minimize the institutional oppression of whites in South Africa? |
The bloody cheek of this comment!!! Really, how dare you... |
Lol. You mad? Correct me if I'm wrong big boy. Pipe down. |
You are wrong in that descendants of colonists who viciously oppressed the natives have no right whatsoever to be complaining about subsequent treatment. It's not your land anyway, so if you have a problem, GTFO.
(Not to Korea, preferably). |
You're a fool.
So it's ok to kill the white people and oppress them NOW because it was done in the past? Should you murder the son of a father who murdered someone? Is that ok?
You're logic makes me think you have an IQ under 100. Honestly. |
The South African government is killing and oppressing white people? You might want to think twice about insulting other people's IQ, it's not a good look on you. |
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Dodge7
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I didn't say government. I implied business owners choosing blacks instead of whites because of skin color and thugs targeting whites farmers and others in the streets as targets, again, because of skin color. What good reasons would any white continue to live in S. Africa with all that blatant racism and violence? |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Dodge7 wrote: |
| I didn't say government. I implied business owners choosing blacks instead of whites because of skin color and thugs targeting whites farmers and others in the streets as targets, again, because of their perceived wealth. What good reasons would any white continue to live in S. Africa with all that blatant racism and violence? |
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Otherside
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| Waygeek wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| O Why are you trying to minimize the institutional oppression of whites in South Africa? |
The bloody cheek of this comment!!! Really, how dare you... |
Lol. You mad? Correct me if I'm wrong big boy. Pipe down. |
To the extent that it's true it's so much less than the instituted when they were in power, that any complaining on their part is beyond hypocritical. That said, it does make sense for them to leave, I had family that left, and the policies that are in place probably have, or at least have started to, out lived their usefulness. I think a lot of the crime has to do with people from neighboring countries coming in rather than native South Africans, but if someone know better, feel free to correct me. Dodge, if your source is a video and anctedotes, pipe down please. |
These kinds of comments always bother me. (especially the bolded bit)
First off, the blacks aren't actually the natives of South Africa, they came down from Western and Central Africa.
Second, they aren't one homogeneous group. Before the Settlers came, they treated eachother like shit, and it was survival the fittest. So while the settlers (whites) have blood on their hands, this was not Utopia prior to their arrival. The Zulu's conquered, raped, and murdered themselves an empire - then again, this isn't much different to what was being done all over the world in the middle ages.
Third, so you're saying people should be punished for the sins of their fathers? The government changed 19 years ago, yet a white student (born after the change) faces discrimination when applying to University. He or she (usually he) will face discrimination when he applies for a job. This is someone who never experienced the "benefits" of apartheid.
Back on topic. There are a few reasons why White South Africans stay in SA. Two of the major ones are:
1. They can't get out. Maybe they don't have the skills, or an EU passport. It's gotten harder and harder for South Africans to emigrate (remember, White South Africans aren't treated any different from the rest, and the "First World" isn't really encouraging African immigration right now").
Maybe they are too old. Regardless, they can't realistically make the move abroad.
2. They'll lose too much. My parents fall into this category. While they never supported Aparthied, or voted for the NP , and did some student activism (My father was actually pretty unique as he was able to dodge the draft), they did very well in South Africa. They were/are not willing to make the lifestyle sacrifice needed to emigrate. If my father ever retires, I'm certain they'll be on the next flight out.
The stats that mention White South Africans earn 6 times more than blacks are unfortunately true. However, they don't show the full picture.. they don't talk about the huge underclass of unemployed and unemployable blacks, enough to distort any figures. They don't talk about the government polices which influence these figures and try and rectify them. ("Current policy is to take the job from the white guy and give it to the black guy - but we'll still ignore the 40% of the population who can't and will not be able to get a job).
I'd like to add, I've rarely experienced racism on an individual/personal level, and never from a black person. The government is a different story, but I've never felt the hate from the people.
| Quote: |
| I implied business owners choosing blacks instead of whites because of skin color and thugs targeting whites farmers and others in the streets as targets, again, because of skin color. |
The companies are "forced" to choose blacks over whites due to government policy. Most of the crime isn't race based (black on black crime is also disgustingly high, if not higher) - not much discrimination here. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Otherside wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| Waygeek wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| O Why are you trying to minimize the institutional oppression of whites in South Africa? |
The bloody cheek of this comment!!! Really, how dare you... |
Lol. You mad? Correct me if I'm wrong big boy. Pipe down. |
To the extent that it's true it's so much less than the instituted when they were in power, that any complaining on their part is beyond hypocritical. That said, it does make sense for them to leave, I had family that left, and the policies that are in place probably have, or at least have started to, out lived their usefulness. I think a lot of the crime has to do with people from neighboring countries coming in rather than native South Africans, but if someone know better, feel free to correct me. Dodge, if your source is a video and anctedotes, pipe down please. |
These kinds of comments always bother me. (especially the bolded bit)
First off, the blacks aren't actually the natives of South Africa, they came down from Western and Central Africa.
Second, they aren't one homogeneous group. Before the Settlers came, they treated eachother like shit, and it was survival the fittest. So while the settlers (whites) have blood on their hands, this was not Utopia prior to their arrival. The Zulu's conquered, raped, and murdered themselves an empire - then again, this isn't much different to what was being done all over the world in the middle ages.
Third, so you're saying people should be punished for the sins of their fathers? The government changed 19 years ago, yet a white student (born after the change) faces discrimination when applying to University. He or she (usually he) will face discrimination when he applies for a job. This is someone who never experienced the "benefits" of apartheid.
Back on topic. There are a few reasons why White South Africans stay in SA. Two of the major ones are:
1. They can't get out. Maybe they don't have the skills, or an EU passport. It's gotten harder and harder for South Africans to emigrate (remember, White South Africans aren't treated any different from the rest, and the "First World" isn't really encouraging African immigration right now").
Maybe they are too old. Regardless, they can't realistically make the move abroad.
2. They'll lose too much. My parents fall into this category. While they never supported Aparthied, or voted for the NP , and did some student activism (My father was actually pretty unique as he was able to dodge the draft), they did very well in South Africa. They were/are not willing to make the lifestyle sacrifice needed to emigrate. If my father ever retires, I'm certain they'll be on the next flight out.
The stats that mention White South Africans earn 6 times more than blacks are unfortunately true. However, they don't show the full picture.. they don't talk about the huge underclass of unemployed and unemployable blacks, enough to distort any figures. They don't talk about the government polices which influence these figures and try and rectify them. ("Current policy is to take the job from the white guy and give it to the black guy - but we'll still ignore the 40% of the population who can't and will not be able to get a job).
I'd like to add, I've rarely experienced racism on an individual/personal level, and never from a black person. The government is a different story, but I've never felt the hate from the people.
| Quote: |
| I implied business owners choosing blacks instead of whites because of skin color and thugs targeting whites farmers and others in the streets as targets, again, because of skin color. |
The companies are "forced" to choose blacks over whites due to government policy. Most of the crime isn't race based (black on black crime is also disgustingly high, if not higher) - not much discrimination here. |
Whether they were native or not has nothing to do with how they were treated, so that's not relavent. I have no sympathy for white South Africans as a group, but lots of sympathy for individuals if that makes sense. As I said many of the policies have probably outlived their usefulness, so I'm not saying that they should be punished. |
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Ave, L�cifer
Joined: 22 Feb 2010
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Otherside wrote: |
Back on topic. There are a few reasons why White South Africans stay in SA. Two of the major ones are:
1. They can't get out. Maybe they don't have the skills, or an EU passport. It's gotten harder and harder for South Africans to emigrate (remember, White South Africans aren't treated any different from the rest, and the "First World" isn't really encouraging African immigration right now").
Maybe they are too old. Regardless, they can't realistically make the move abroad.
2. They'll lose too much. My parents fall into this category. While they never supported Aparthied, or voted for the NP , and did some student activism (My father was actually pretty unique as he was able to dodge the draft), they did very well in South Africa. They were/are not willing to make the lifestyle sacrifice needed to emigrate. If my father ever retires, I'm certain they'll be on the next flight out.
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3. the assumptions of some of the uninformed right-wing americans that have grown up in a culture of fear and ignorance that populate this thread have been concentrated completely on the negative, i mean if we wanted to concentrate purely on the negatives of korea, the us etc. it would also not seem too appealing.
diversity, natural beauty, climate etc in cape town is far greater than any part of korea, the problem is that there are large parts of the population that due to a combination of historical oppression and a bumbling/corrupt administration since democracy don't have sufficient quality of life to enjoy all of these benefits. but from the perspective of E-2 eligible English teachers (university educated etc) Korea is not some kind of mecca that everyone is desperately trying to stay in forever and ever. |
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Otherside
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Whether they were native or not has nothing to do with how they were treated, so that's not relavent. I have no sympathy for white South Africans as a group, but lots of sympathy for individuals if that makes sense. As I said many of the policies have probably outlived their usefulness, so I'm not saying that they should be punished. |
Leon, by the same token, you have no sympathy for Germans or Japanese based on how they treated people before and during WW2? (Even though anyone under 80 wouldn't have had any role whatsoever)
How about for White Americans? The US actually has a far bloodier and oppressive history towards the native population than that of SA.
Or any other group that has oppressed another group throughout history).
I'd like to point out, that the watershed election in South Africa which led to Apartheid (prior to that, the policies in SA were no more discriminatory than places like the US at the time), was in 1948 and the NP did NOT receive a majority of the vote (there was quite a bit gerrymandering as we still used a constituency system). In 1960 there was a referendum on whether South Africa would stay in the commonwealth (and abandon the Apartheid policies) or leave and become a Republic. It was passed with 52.2% of the vote (white). In two separate and defining elections over 45% of the (WHITE) population was against Apartheid. Again, in both of these periods the US has a pretty horrendous record itself.
Lastly, in the final referendum which led to the end of the Apartheid and the enfranchisement of the entire population, over 68% (white) voted in favour of ending Apartheid.
So, while its a popular narrative (you certainly aren't the first), to say that all (or at least most) White South Africans were in favour of Apartheid it does a huge disservice to over 40% of the white population who were well against Apartheid for its entire duration.
By your logic, I should have little sympathy when I hear of American victims, because lets be honest, Americans as a group aren't worthy of sympathy due to the actions of their government... but I have lots of sympathy for individuals. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Otherside wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Whether they were native or not has nothing to do with how they were treated, so that's not relavent. I have no sympathy for white South Africans as a group, but lots of sympathy for individuals if that makes sense. As I said many of the policies have probably outlived their usefulness, so I'm not saying that they should be punished. |
Leon, by the same token, you have no sympathy for Germans or Japanese based on how they treated people before and during WW2? (Even though anyone under 80 wouldn't have had any role whatsoever)
How about for White Americans? The US actually has a far bloodier and oppressive history towards the native population than that of SA.
Or any other group that has oppressed another group throughout history).
I'd like to point out, that the watershed election in South Africa which led to Apartheid (prior to that, the policies in SA were no more discriminatory than places like the US at the time), was in 1948 and the NP did NOT receive a majority of the vote (there was quite a bit gerrymandering as we still used a constituency system). In 1960 there was a referendum on whether South Africa would stay in the commonwealth (and abandon the Apartheid policies) or leave and become a Republic. It was passed with 52.2% of the vote (white). In two separate and defining elections over 45% of the (WHITE) population was against Apartheid. Again, in both of these periods the US has a pretty horrendous record itself.
Lastly, in the final referendum which led to the end of the Apartheid and the enfranchisement of the entire population, over 68% (white) voted in favour of ending Apartheid.
So, while its a popular narrative (you certainly aren't the first), to say that all (or at least most) White South Africans were in favour of Apartheid it does a huge disservice to over 40% of the white population who were well against Apartheid for its entire duration.
By your logic, I should have little sympathy when I hear of American victims, because lets be honest, Americans as a group aren't worthy of sympathy due to the actions of their government... but I have lots of sympathy for individuals. |
You don't really understand what I was saying. Why would I have sympathy for the Japanese and the Germans or White Americans, I don't, they aren't really suffering now. I never said that all White South Africans were in favor of Apartheid. You didn't read what I wrote carefully, and your post is reading a lot of things into it that aren't there. As I said, I have lots of sympathy for individuals who are having a hard time who are white South Africans. I am related by marriage to a South African, and have cousins who are half south African who left because of the crime. I have several friends from South Africa. As a group, I don't think they deserve sympathy any more than any other South African, and considering that as a group, not as individuals, they were responsible for implementing far worse restrictions and violence then they are currently experiencing. Things like hiring preferences were probably necessary at first due to the power structure being white, but like I said before, probably are increasingly not needed or harmful. As a group, not as individuals, when white South Africans complain about these things, they are being hypocritical, and are unsympathetic. Individual cases vary, of course. As to your last thing about Americans, that's a weird example, of course you can have sympathy for the individual victims, but why would you have sympathy for an entire country? Are all white South Africans, who are richer and more privileged on average, victims, must I have sympathy for everyone?
Nuance, not everyone has black and white views such as your hyperbole would suggest. |
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Otherside
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Otherside wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Whether they were native or not has nothing to do with how they were treated, so that's not relavent. I have no sympathy for white South Africans as a group, but lots of sympathy for individuals if that makes sense. As I said many of the policies have probably outlived their usefulness, so I'm not saying that they should be punished. |
Leon, by the same token, you have no sympathy for Germans or Japanese based on how they treated people before and during WW2? (Even though anyone under 80 wouldn't have had any role whatsoever)
How about for White Americans? The US actually has a far bloodier and oppressive history towards the native population than that of SA.
Or any other group that has oppressed another group throughout history).
I'd like to point out, that the watershed election in South Africa which led to Apartheid (prior to that, the policies in SA were no more discriminatory than places like the US at the time), was in 1948 and the NP did NOT receive a majority of the vote (there was quite a bit gerrymandering as we still used a constituency system). In 1960 there was a referendum on whether South Africa would stay in the commonwealth (and abandon the Apartheid policies) or leave and become a Republic. It was passed with 52.2% of the vote (white). In two separate and defining elections over 45% of the (WHITE) population was against Apartheid. Again, in both of these periods the US has a pretty horrendous record itself.
Lastly, in the final referendum which led to the end of the Apartheid and the enfranchisement of the entire population, over 68% (white) voted in favour of ending Apartheid.
So, while its a popular narrative (you certainly aren't the first), to say that all (or at least most) White South Africans were in favour of Apartheid it does a huge disservice to over 40% of the white population who were well against Apartheid for its entire duration.
By your logic, I should have little sympathy when I hear of American victims, because lets be honest, Americans as a group aren't worthy of sympathy due to the actions of their government... but I have lots of sympathy for individuals. |
You don't really understand what I was saying. Why would I have sympathy for the Japanese and the Germans or White Americans, I don't, they aren't really suffering now. I never said that all White South Africans were in favor of Apartheid. You didn't read what I wrote carefully, and your post is reading a lot of things into it that aren't there. As I said, I have lots of sympathy for individuals who are having a hard time who are white South Africans. I am related by marriage to a South African, and have cousins who are half south African who left because of the crime. I have several friends from South Africa. As a group, I don't think they deserve sympathy any more than any other South African, and considering that as a group, not as individuals, they were responsible for implementing far worse restrictions and violence then they are currently experiencing. Things like hiring preferences were probably necessary at first due to the power structure being white, but like I said before, probably are increasingly not needed or harmful. As a group, not as individuals, when white South Africans complain about these things, they are being hypocritical, and are unsympathetic. Individual cases vary, of course. As to your last thing about Americans, that's a weird example, of course you can have sympathy for the individual victims, but why would you have sympathy for an entire country? Are all white South Africans, who are richer and more privileged on average, victims, must I have sympathy for everyone?
Nuance, not everyone has black and white views such as your hyperbole would suggest. |
Indeed, I make no attempt to read between the lines here, threads like these are full enough of outlandish and unsubstantiated posts that to make guesses on what others are saying is futile, so I read the posts as they're written.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Unfortunately, your distinction between individual and collective doesn't really make much sense. You're the first to admit that individuals are struggling, and you support/sympathise with them. At what point does a number of people struggling become a group and thus no longer worthy of support or sympathy?
Approximately 10% of White South Africa lives below the poverty line (yes a far smaller proportion than black), however these people are actively discriminated against and have little chance to move up. The (largely ineffectual) government polices to help the "poor" are, if anything ensuring that they stay there. So that's a pretty big group.
What about the hundreds of thousands who are unable to find meaningful employment, are discriminated in terms of educational opportunities and are overlooked for promotions based solely on their skin-colour. Those who are lucky enough to get jobs are often paid less than their less qualified peers.
When you start putting these 2 groups together you realise that actually the majority are having a tough time.
As you say, it's not all black and white.
While you yield that the policies in place have probably outlived their usefulness, the sad truth is that they were never "useful". In an ideal world, they could have had a lot merit and the pros would have outweighed the cons, and the country could have made progress. The reality however was quite different. As one leading (black) academic recently wrote, the problems with the government's policies was too much focus on redividing the pie as opposed to baking a new one (and all the nepotism, cronyism and corruption).
Looking to the future, the rather than removing these discriminatory polices the government appears to be more in favour of taking more away from the "haves" to give to the "previously disadvantaged" (read: relative of a well-connected politician who is already a multimillionaire).
I apologise for the long-winded posts, usually I'm pretty positive about SA, and seldom join the bashfests. I feel the longer I'm away, the more negative I become (the good things become distant memories, while the negatives are in the news on a daily basis). |
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Waygeek
Joined: 27 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Dodge7 wrote: |
| What good reasons would any white continue to live in S. Africa with all that blatant racism and violence? |
Maybe the universe is trying to give y'all a hint. Time for natives of the continent to get their continent back from colonists. Non-violence is of course, the vastly preferable option, and I never recommended otherwise. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and all that.
But again, to crib about the natives being racist towards the colonists is just... wow. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow, what happened to this thread. The first page was good though. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Time for natives of the continent to get their continent back from colonists |
They have, and look what wonderful progress they've made. |
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Dodge7
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Waygeek wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| What good reasons would any white continue to live in S. Africa with all that blatant racism and violence? |
Maybe the universe is trying to give y'all a hint. Time for natives of the continent to get their continent back from colonists. Non-violence is of course, the vastly preferable option, and I never recommended otherwise. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and all that.
But again, to crib about the natives being racist towards the colonists is just... wow. |
So I guess what you are saying is that you want the natives to go back to mud thatch huts and chasing game to eat.
you accepting and condoning racism makes you just as bad. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Otherside wrote: |
The US actually has a far bloodier and oppressive history towards the native population than that of SA.
Or any other group that has oppressed another group throughout history). |
Could you back up that opinion with historical facts? Because I beg to differ that the history of the US towards natives was more violent than that of say New Zealand or Australia. |
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