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basic69isokay
Joined: 28 Sep 2014
Location: korea
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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This is very outdated and even Koreans feel annoyed at the language nazis (older Koreans)
It's basically the fuedal system in 2014. Pretty dumb.
I once had a friend who got scammed out of 40,000USD investing in a fake business. He said "but his language was so polite on the phone!"
It's crazy. The way you speak is much more important than what you say. I don't think that will ever change in Korea. It's huge social pressure. That's why There's so many alcholics and suicides here. The social pressure is insane. Every word has to be meticulously calculated. Don't offend someone who's 2 years older or makes more money. Super outdated thinking.
Also, it turns many people off from learning the language because you basically have to start thinking in medieval terms. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| basic69isokay wrote: |
| The social pressure is insane. Every word has to be meticulously calculated. |
Can't imagine a form of ultra-sensitive doublespeak emerging back home.
The point is, even when you ditch those old formalities and forms of politeness, it seems new ones take their place. From chivalry and "Father knows best" to Political Correctness. That's just the natural state of things. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Here's how it will play out:
Young: "Get rid of the hierarchy! Why should we respect our elders? Everyone is equal!"
Then they get old... "Hey! How come the young don't respect the elders? We've earned more respect."
You asked for it. Can't have it both ways.
Generally speaking, hierarchy = stability. There are some problems with it if it's too strict, but it shouldn't be forgotten completely. |
Coming from a region where nobody would expect that you use an honorific once reaching adulthood, I beg to differ. I called my high school teachers by their first names, whether they were 26 or 66. My mother can't bear anyone calling her missus, nor my grandmother at that. It's possible to have a society in which the old recognize that they should respect the young as much as the young should respect the old. |
Possible, maybe. Desirable? Debatable. In this society you mention, when a parent says "come inside now, kids!" the kids can just reply: "No! Don't wanna!" and the adult has to respect that? After all, the old should respect the young as equals, right?
The point is, you really don't want to erase that hierarchical line too much, especially in the case of kids. I'm not a fan of calling teachers by first names either, unless everyone is adult and the teacher specifically requests this. I've been both a teacher and a student, and that's still my preference. On some level, you're going to respect a teacher a little bit less when you can address them like: "Hey, Steve! How's it going?" as opposed to "Hello, Dr. Smith. How are you?"
If people want to get all chummy and call everyone by first names, they can try to do that in certain situations, but IMO I don't think it should be the default. Delineation and hierarchy serves a purpose and has plenty of positive aspects. |
But how does using an honorific make a difference? The fact that you're Mr. Mix as opposed to Mix1 is why people should listen to you? That's just lipstick on a pig. |
No, it's lipstick on a very decent looking guy. Err....uh... ok not the best comeback.
Using an honorific makes a difference because language choices make a difference in social interactions.
Is there a difference between "Excuse me, sir..." and "Hey you!"... yes, quite a clear difference. One is polite, and the other is confrontational and could land you in trouble if you say that to the wrong person. Go try it out and see for yourself...
Just because you don't care about honorifics and their function in politeness doesn't mean other people don't.
Also, using "Mr." or other honorifics doesn't automatically mean the other person must listen to you. It can add an extra layer of politeness, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that. |
That example is sr-worthy. There's plenty of middle ground between the two that would fit most situations. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
No, it's lipstick on a very decent looking guy. Err....uh... ok not the best comeback.
Using an honorific makes a difference because language choices make a difference in social interactions.
Is there a difference between "Excuse me, sir..." and "Hey you!"... yes, quite a clear difference. One is polite, and the other is confrontational and could land you in trouble if you say that to the wrong person. Go try it out and see for yourself...
Just because you don't care about honorifics and their function in politeness doesn't mean other people don't.
Also, using "Mr." or other honorifics doesn't automatically mean the other person must listen to you. It can add an extra layer of politeness, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that. |
As noted, this isn't a me thing, this is a cultural thing in the Northeast, specifically New England. I can tell you we always addressed our teachers respectfully in high school, kind of like the way you might address an aunt, uncle, or a cousin who was older than you. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
No, it's lipstick on a very decent looking guy. Err....uh... ok not the best comeback.
Using an honorific makes a difference because language choices make a difference in social interactions.
Is there a difference between "Excuse me, sir..." and "Hey you!"... yes, quite a clear difference. One is polite, and the other is confrontational and could land you in trouble if you say that to the wrong person. Go try it out and see for yourself...
Just because you don't care about honorifics and their function in politeness doesn't mean other people don't.
Also, using "Mr." or other honorifics doesn't automatically mean the other person must listen to you. It can add an extra layer of politeness, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that. |
As noted, this isn't a me thing, this is a cultural thing in the Northeast, specifically New England. I can tell you we always addressed our teachers respectfully in high school, kind of like the way you might address an aunt, uncle, or a cousin who was older than you. |
That's good to hear.
So you probably still used honorifics, but not always honorific titles. Maybe you went to a special school (Waldorf?) or something, but the use of honorific titles is probably case by case and likely not regional. I have family in New England and the kids address their teachers as Mr. / Mrs. and that's in both public school and a really prestigious private school.
Either way, honorific titles aren't meaningless, they often show politeness. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Here's how it will play out:
Young: "Get rid of the hierarchy! Why should we respect our elders? Everyone is equal!"
Then they get old... "Hey! How come the young don't respect the elders? We've earned more respect."
You asked for it. Can't have it both ways.
Generally speaking, hierarchy = stability. There are some problems with it if it's too strict, but it shouldn't be forgotten completely. |
Coming from a region where nobody would expect that you use an honorific once reaching adulthood, I beg to differ. I called my high school teachers by their first names, whether they were 26 or 66. My mother can't bear anyone calling her missus, nor my grandmother at that. It's possible to have a society in which the old recognize that they should respect the young as much as the young should respect the old. |
Possible, maybe. Desirable? Debatable. In this society you mention, when a parent says "come inside now, kids!" the kids can just reply: "No! Don't wanna!" and the adult has to respect that? After all, the old should respect the young as equals, right?
The point is, you really don't want to erase that hierarchical line too much, especially in the case of kids. I'm not a fan of calling teachers by first names either, unless everyone is adult and the teacher specifically requests this. I've been both a teacher and a student, and that's still my preference. On some level, you're going to respect a teacher a little bit less when you can address them like: "Hey, Steve! How's it going?" as opposed to "Hello, Dr. Smith. How are you?"
If people want to get all chummy and call everyone by first names, they can try to do that in certain situations, but IMO I don't think it should be the default. Delineation and hierarchy serves a purpose and has plenty of positive aspects. |
But how does using an honorific make a difference? The fact that you're Mr. Mix as opposed to Mix1 is why people should listen to you? That's just lipstick on a pig. |
No, it's lipstick on a very decent looking guy. Err....uh... ok not the best comeback.
Using an honorific makes a difference because language choices make a difference in social interactions.
Is there a difference between "Excuse me, sir..." and "Hey you!"... yes, quite a clear difference. One is polite, and the other is confrontational and could land you in trouble if you say that to the wrong person. Go try it out and see for yourself...
Just because you don't care about honorifics and their function in politeness doesn't mean other people don't.
Also, using "Mr." or other honorifics doesn't automatically mean the other person must listen to you. It can add an extra layer of politeness, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that. |
That example is sr-worthy. There's plenty of middle ground between the two that would fit most situations. |
The examples were chosen to show contrast, obviously. The main point still stands; honorifics are more polite and should be used in plenty of situations. Basically, I'm against the whole, same-same, I'll talk however I want to you BS. Better to show some respect first, and then if we become familiar the language can break down accordingly. This happens in Korean too sometimes, even if it's a much more rigid system.
"sr-worthy"? lol  |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
That's good to hear.
So you probably still used honorifics, but not always honorific titles. Maybe you went to a special school (Waldorf?) or something, but the use of honorific titles is probably case by case and likely not regional. I have family in New England and the kids address their teachers as Mr. / Mrs. and that's in both public school and a really prestigious private school.
Either way, honorific titles aren't meaningless, they often show politeness. |
Really prestigious private school here as well, though I know those cut both ways (Putney on one end, Milton on the other). Isn't a title inherently an honorific though? Yes, in most cases teachers will be addressed as Mr./Mrs., I just mentioned my high school as an example of why I think it's kind of a pointless exercise. My larger point is that certain regions place a much stronger emphasis on the use of honorifics than others do, but that doesn't mean that the individuals there are any more polite, it's just a different form of politeness. I'm still taken aback when friends' parents here in Georgia expect me to call them Mr. and Mrs. Smith, or when a customer slightly older than I am expects to be called Miss Mary, as it's totally outside the norm where I'm from. In this regard, the Korean language falls more on the side of the South and the Midwest than the Northeast and the West Coast.
This is comparable to the ongoing push and pull argument regarding Koreans' apparent rudeness. Some behavior might be rude, but some is just different. I'm willing to adjust myself to varying regional preferences (I'm Tito Northway in Miami, and Northway Oppa with my Korean friends' younger family members), but that's just the point - one way isn't necessarily any better than the other. I guess I have a lot more faith that younger individuals will respect their elders without addressing them with a title. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Here's how it will play out:
Young: "Get rid of the hierarchy! Why should we respect our elders? Everyone is equal!"
Then they get old... "Hey! How come the young don't respect the elders? We've earned more respect."
You asked for it. Can't have it both ways.
Generally speaking, hierarchy = stability. There are some problems with it if it's too strict, but it shouldn't be forgotten completely. |
Coming from a region where nobody would expect that you use an honorific once reaching adulthood, I beg to differ. I called my high school teachers by their first names, whether they were 26 or 66. My mother can't bear anyone calling her missus, nor my grandmother at that. It's possible to have a society in which the old recognize that they should respect the young as much as the young should respect the old. |
Possible, maybe. Desirable? Debatable. In this society you mention, when a parent says "come inside now, kids!" the kids can just reply: "No! Don't wanna!" and the adult has to respect that? After all, the old should respect the young as equals, right?
The point is, you really don't want to erase that hierarchical line too much, especially in the case of kids. I'm not a fan of calling teachers by first names either, unless everyone is adult and the teacher specifically requests this. I've been both a teacher and a student, and that's still my preference. On some level, you're going to respect a teacher a little bit less when you can address them like: "Hey, Steve! How's it going?" as opposed to "Hello, Dr. Smith. How are you?"
If people want to get all chummy and call everyone by first names, they can try to do that in certain situations, but IMO I don't think it should be the default. Delineation and hierarchy serves a purpose and has plenty of positive aspects. |
But how does using an honorific make a difference? The fact that you're Mr. Mix as opposed to Mix1 is why people should listen to you? That's just lipstick on a pig. |
No, it's lipstick on a very decent looking guy. Err....uh... ok not the best comeback.
Using an honorific makes a difference because language choices make a difference in social interactions.
Is there a difference between "Excuse me, sir..." and "Hey you!"... yes, quite a clear difference. One is polite, and the other is confrontational and could land you in trouble if you say that to the wrong person. Go try it out and see for yourself...
Just because you don't care about honorifics and their function in politeness doesn't mean other people don't.
Also, using "Mr." or other honorifics doesn't automatically mean the other person must listen to you. It can add an extra layer of politeness, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that. |
That example is sr-worthy. There's plenty of middle ground between the two that would fit most situations. |
The examples were chosen to show contrast, obviously. The main point still stands; honorifics are more polite and should be used in plenty of situations. Basically, I'm against the whole, same-same, I'll talk however I want to you BS. Better to show some respect first, and then if we become familiar the language can break down accordingly. This happens in Korean too sometimes, even if it's a much more rigid system.
"sr-worthy"? lol |
"Hey mister" can be said with ill intent--"Hey mister, your money or your life."
There's an honorific for you.
"The whole same-same" Thanks for the strawman. Just because you use someone's first name doesn't mean you automatically start speaking to them in a disrespectful way. That's why children use honorifics; they are learning to be polite and needed to be reminded to show respect. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Here's how it will play out:
Young: "Get rid of the hierarchy! Why should we respect our elders? Everyone is equal!"
Then they get old... "Hey! How come the young don't respect the elders? We've earned more respect."
You asked for it. Can't have it both ways.
Generally speaking, hierarchy = stability. There are some problems with it if it's too strict, but it shouldn't be forgotten completely. |
Coming from a region where nobody would expect that you use an honorific once reaching adulthood, I beg to differ. I called my high school teachers by their first names, whether they were 26 or 66. My mother can't bear anyone calling her missus, nor my grandmother at that. It's possible to have a society in which the old recognize that they should respect the young as much as the young should respect the old. |
Possible, maybe. Desirable? Debatable. In this society you mention, when a parent says "come inside now, kids!" the kids can just reply: "No! Don't wanna!" and the adult has to respect that? After all, the old should respect the young as equals, right?
The point is, you really don't want to erase that hierarchical line too much, especially in the case of kids. I'm not a fan of calling teachers by first names either, unless everyone is adult and the teacher specifically requests this. I've been both a teacher and a student, and that's still my preference. On some level, you're going to respect a teacher a little bit less when you can address them like: "Hey, Steve! How's it going?" as opposed to "Hello, Dr. Smith. How are you?"
If people want to get all chummy and call everyone by first names, they can try to do that in certain situations, but IMO I don't think it should be the default. Delineation and hierarchy serves a purpose and has plenty of positive aspects. |
But how does using an honorific make a difference? The fact that you're Mr. Mix as opposed to Mix1 is why people should listen to you? That's just lipstick on a pig. |
No, it's lipstick on a very decent looking guy. Err....uh... ok not the best comeback.
Using an honorific makes a difference because language choices make a difference in social interactions.
Is there a difference between "Excuse me, sir..." and "Hey you!"... yes, quite a clear difference. One is polite, and the other is confrontational and could land you in trouble if you say that to the wrong person. Go try it out and see for yourself...
Just because you don't care about honorifics and their function in politeness doesn't mean other people don't.
Also, using "Mr." or other honorifics doesn't automatically mean the other person must listen to you. It can add an extra layer of politeness, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that. |
That example is sr-worthy. There's plenty of middle ground between the two that would fit most situations. |
The examples were chosen to show contrast, obviously. The main point still stands; honorifics are more polite and should be used in plenty of situations. Basically, I'm against the whole, same-same, I'll talk however I want to you BS. Better to show some respect first, and then if we become familiar the language can break down accordingly. This happens in Korean too sometimes, even if it's a much more rigid system.
"sr-worthy"? lol |
"Hey mister" can be said with ill intent--"Hey mister, your money or your life."
There's an honorific for you.
"The whole same-same" Thanks for the strawman. Just because you use someone's first name doesn't mean you automatically start speaking to them in a disrespectful way. That's why children use honorifics; they are learning to be polite and needed to be reminded to show respect. |
Relax. The "same-same" comment wasn't even supposed to be your argument, I was merely stating my own preference. But you might be guilty of a straw man... I never said using a first name is inherently disrespectful. All I said was honorifics make things more polite, and thus are preferable in many situations....a view you probably agree with.
And yes, children should definitely be using honorifics. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
That's good to hear.
So you probably still used honorifics, but not always honorific titles. Maybe you went to a special school (Waldorf?) or something, but the use of honorific titles is probably case by case and likely not regional. I have family in New England and the kids address their teachers as Mr. / Mrs. and that's in both public school and a really prestigious private school.
Either way, honorific titles aren't meaningless, they often show politeness. |
Really prestigious private school here as well, though I know those cut both ways (Putney on one end, Milton on the other). Isn't a title inherently an honorific though? Yes, in most cases teachers will be addressed as Mr./Mrs., I just mentioned my high school as an example of why I think it's kind of a pointless exercise. My larger point is that certain regions place a much stronger emphasis on the use of honorifics than others do, but that doesn't mean that the individuals there are any more polite, it's just a different form of politeness. I'm still taken aback when friends' parents here in Georgia expect me to call them Mr. and Mrs. Smith, or when a customer slightly older than I am expects to be called Miss Mary, as it's totally outside the norm where I'm from. In this regard, the Korean language falls more on the side of the South and the Midwest than the Northeast and the West Coast.
This is comparable to the ongoing push and pull argument regarding Koreans' apparent rudeness. Some behavior might be rude, but some is just different. I'm willing to adjust myself to varying regional preferences (I'm Tito Northway in Miami, and Northway Oppa with my Korean friends' younger family members), but that's just the point - one way isn't necessarily any better than the other. I guess I have a lot more faith that younger individuals will respect their elders without addressing them with a title. |
I don't. They won't do it on their own, they need parameters. It's not just about titles though, it's in general.
And some ways are different, but some ways are better than others. I think things have slipped and need to be tightened up a bit and good manners should be enforced more, including language (honorifics/titles).If a child can talk to an adult however they want, it follows they can do whatever they want. While norms can relax or change somewhat, it can be a mistake to loosen them too much. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Here's how it will play out:
Young: "Get rid of the hierarchy! Why should we respect our elders? Everyone is equal!"
Then they get old... "Hey! How come the young don't respect the elders? We've earned more respect."
You asked for it. Can't have it both ways.
Generally speaking, hierarchy = stability. There are some problems with it if it's too strict, but it shouldn't be forgotten completely. |
Coming from a region where nobody would expect that you use an honorific once reaching adulthood, I beg to differ. I called my high school teachers by their first names, whether they were 26 or 66. My mother can't bear anyone calling her missus, nor my grandmother at that. It's possible to have a society in which the old recognize that they should respect the young as much as the young should respect the old. |
Possible, maybe. Desirable? Debatable. In this society you mention, when a parent says "come inside now, kids!" the kids can just reply: "No! Don't wanna!" and the adult has to respect that? After all, the old should respect the young as equals, right?
The point is, you really don't want to erase that hierarchical line too much, especially in the case of kids. I'm not a fan of calling teachers by first names either, unless everyone is adult and the teacher specifically requests this. I've been both a teacher and a student, and that's still my preference. On some level, you're going to respect a teacher a little bit less when you can address them like: "Hey, Steve! How's it going?" as opposed to "Hello, Dr. Smith. How are you?"
If people want to get all chummy and call everyone by first names, they can try to do that in certain situations, but IMO I don't think it should be the default. Delineation and hierarchy serves a purpose and has plenty of positive aspects. |
But how does using an honorific make a difference? The fact that you're Mr. Mix as opposed to Mix1 is why people should listen to you? That's just lipstick on a pig. |
No, it's lipstick on a very decent looking guy. Err....uh... ok not the best comeback.
Using an honorific makes a difference because language choices make a difference in social interactions.
Is there a difference between "Excuse me, sir..." and "Hey you!"... yes, quite a clear difference. One is polite, and the other is confrontational and could land you in trouble if you say that to the wrong person. Go try it out and see for yourself...
Just because you don't care about honorifics and their function in politeness doesn't mean other people don't.
Also, using "Mr." or other honorifics doesn't automatically mean the other person must listen to you. It can add an extra layer of politeness, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that. |
That example is sr-worthy. There's plenty of middle ground between the two that would fit most situations. |
The examples were chosen to show contrast, obviously. The main point still stands; honorifics are more polite and should be used in plenty of situations. Basically, I'm against the whole, same-same, I'll talk however I want to you BS. Better to show some respect first, and then if we become familiar the language can break down accordingly. This happens in Korean too sometimes, even if it's a much more rigid system.
"sr-worthy"? lol |
"Hey mister" can be said with ill intent--"Hey mister, your money or your life."
There's an honorific for you.
"The whole same-same" Thanks for the strawman. Just because you use someone's first name doesn't mean you automatically start speaking to them in a disrespectful way. That's why children use honorifics; they are learning to be polite and needed to be reminded to show respect. |
Relax. The "same-same" comment wasn't even supposed to be your argument, I was merely stating my own preference. But you might be guilty of a straw man... I never said using a first name is inherently disrespectful. All I said was honorifics make things more polite, and thus are preferable in many situations....a view you probably agree with.
And yes, children should definitely be using honorifics. |
You said you were "against" it so there's definitely a sense of argument there. Your preference would have been the way you prefer to speak not the way you don't prefer to speak.
I would also say some rather than many in "preferable in many situations." Thus I don't agree and IMO it's presumptuous on your part to state I probably would.
Since you are the one pushing polite speech, isn't starting a comment with "relax" a bit casual, bordering on the impolite?
And your "same-same" comment certainly implies that using first names is "inherently disrespectful." |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Just an aside from this amazingly mind-blowing debate.
It kind of surprises me that there are schools where you can call your teachers by their first names. All throughout my schooling, elementary, junior high, high school, and university it was always Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss/Dr./Professor <last-name>. But then again, most of the male teacher I had, before university, which amounted to like 5/6, teachers, always wore suits. So I guess my area was a little more conservative.
Anyways carry on. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I went to boarding school, which may have something to do with the looseness. It was up to the particular teacher what they wanted to be call, but the vast majority just went by their first names. When you eat three meals a day with people and live side by side with them and their children, a certain closeness develops. |
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