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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
.. westerners might be the ones in the wrong.
Maybe we should ask 'Are Westerners overly sensitive about personal space'?
.. if one rationally looks at the issue. |
"Rationally", then...
a) It is logical that allowing complete strangers to casually touch you is potentially dangerous: modern science tells us germs and disease is passed in this way. If someone carrying ebola ever set fott in Korea, the entire population would be gone within days. Koreans still live in a time when they didn't even know bacteria existed.
b) It is logical not to allow complete strangers to approach too closely, for reasons of personal security. You do not know the intention of a stranger- they might want to rob you or attack you. Instinctively we know that keeping a certain distance enables a person to defend themself better.
c) In the new era of globalization, Korea needs to change its cultural behaviour to conform to acceptable international norms. If the entire rest of the world finds Korean behaviour irritating at best and downright offensive at worst, it will not help this country in its relations with others. poor relations with other nations hurts the economy in many ways that you may not even be aware of. How many wronged ESL teachers pass on the word that Koreans cannot be trusted- including in business contracts? How many foreign tourists flee the country and tell others not to bother visiting?.
d) China has had the courage to try and reform their own behaviour, or at least make most people more aware. Why is korea so afraid to do the same thing- to ever admit they are less than perfect? |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Chaparrastique, for real?
a) A "casual touch" equates with the passing of "germs and disease"?
b) If strangers "approach too closely" "they might want to rob you or attack you." Yep, beware all those Korean muggers & pickpockets!
c) Not relevant to a discussion about personal space.
d) China, yep, theres a fine model. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
Chaparrastique, for real?
a) A "casual touch" equates with the passing of "germs and disease"?
b) If strangers "approach too closely" "they might want to rob you or attack you." Yep, beware all those Korean muggers & pickpockets!
c) Not relevant to a discussion about personal space.
d) China, yep, theres a fine model. |
Touching can pass germs etc. I don't think there's any denying that. Not exactly the same, but remember when it seemed like everyone in Korea had cold sores from drinking after each other and the like?
If you're Hindu, you don't touch others for spiritual reasons.
I don't think anyone's going to rob me, but I'm not comfortable with the way people walk right at you, waiting until the last second to give you room to pass (or not) as if walking down the sidewalk was one big game of chicken. And many seem to drive the same way, which can be more problematic.
No China expert, but what I experienced there is that if they tried to take your personal space and you stood your ground they backed off without getting huffy about it the way Koreans do. And in Taiwan they were friendly and respected others' space.
How about in museums? That lack of respect for others' personal space can make attending an art exhibition less than edifying. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
a) It is logical that allowing complete strangers to casually touch you is potentially dangerous: modern science tells us germs and disease is passed in this way. If someone carrying ebola ever set fott in Korea, the entire population would be gone within days. Koreans still live in a time when they didn't even know bacteria existed.
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If this behavior is cultural, and given that epidemics worse than ebola have broken out through Korea's history and yet Koreans still exist, and given that people in Africa were doing things like ritual burials that were extremely high risk in terms of transmitting infection, yet the number of cases was not in the millions, I think we can conclude that your theory is ludicrous.
People get the flu in Korea, you get it back home. I think you're overestimating the sanitary power of an extra 18 inches of space.
That and I'm pretty sure no one here has much of a problem with hooking up with some girl they meet at the club. If one was really so scared about infection, they'd avoid having sex with a random stranger. It's like people who harp on smoking affecting their health as they're downing 2 40s of King Cobra. It's not about really being concerned about you're health. It's about a habit that you find personally annoying and think people should change their behavior to accommodate your view.
| Quote: |
| It is logical not to allow complete strangers to approach too closely, for reasons of personal security. You do not know the intention of a stranger- they might want to rob you or attack you. Instinctively we know that keeping a certain distance enables a person to defend themself better. |
Dude, if someone really wanted to kill you, they could do it. Those extra 18 inches of space aren't going to save you. You sit next to people on the bus and stand next to them in the subway and pass by them all the time.
And who do you think you are? Some high value target? Are you afraid that some random guy on the streets of Korea is going to come at you?
If you're this worried about being attacked and personal space, I have an idea. Stand to the side in an elevator in case some guy with a tommy gun is waiting to blast you as soon as the door opens. There's about as much basis to be afraid of that as there is someone standing close to you on the subway.
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| How many wronged ESL teachers pass on the word that Koreans cannot be trusted- including in business contracts? |
Yeah, the NETs proved really influential in stopping overseas companies such as Coca-Cola, Lush, 7-11, Ralph Lauren, Paula's Choice, etc. from opening up in Korea.
This is borderline delusional.
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| How many foreign tourists flee the country and tell others not to bother visiting?. |
And how many have a blast? I mean, compared to what else might go down in other countries, Korea's sins are relatively benign. Some guy spitting vs. getting mugged at gunpoint tends to offer a sense of perspective.
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| China has had the courage to try and reform their own behaviour, or at least make most people more aware. Why is korea so afraid to do the same thing- to ever admit they are less than perfect? |
Do you seriously think Koreans never try to change cultural behaviors? Good grief, in 5 years I've noticed a difference. Most long-termers can say things are radically different. If anything, Koreans have changed relatively rapidly compared to other countries. |
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Qonny
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Most humans don't like people getting up in their space.
That may be Sociocultural evolution and some of the factors already mentioned, health, safety etc probably played a part in the forming of it originally.
People do seem to get more sick here then other first world countries i've lived in. Purely anecdotal of course.
Steelrails, perhaps the "western", though I don't think it is western as plenty of non-western countires I have been dont have the same personal space issue as Korea, concept isn't best. So instead of just arguing why others are wrong, please share with us the benefits of people constantly being in each others space. Because I think there are a few pros for the "western style" namely lessening the risk of bumping into others, treading on toes, and avoiding conflict that may arise. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
a) It is logical that allowing complete strangers to casually touch you is potentially dangerous: modern science tells us germs and disease is passed in this way. If someone carrying ebola ever set fott in Korea, the entire population would be gone within days. Koreans still live in a time when they didn't even know bacteria existed.
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If this behavior is cultural, and given that epidemics worse than ebola have broken out through Korea's history and yet Koreans still exist, and given that people in Africa were doing things like ritual burials that were extremely high risk in terms of transmitting infection, yet the number of cases was not in the millions, I think we can conclude that your theory is ludicrous.
People get the flu in Korea, you get it back home. I think you're overestimating the sanitary power of an extra 18 inches of space.
That and I'm pretty sure no one here has much of a problem with hooking up with some girl they meet at the club. If one was really so scared about infection, they'd avoid having sex with a random stranger. It's like people who harp on smoking affecting their health as they're downing 2 40s of King Cobra. It's not about really being concerned about you're health. It's about a habit that you find personally annoying and think people should change their behavior to accommodate your view.
| Quote: |
| It is logical not to allow complete strangers to approach too closely, for reasons of personal security. You do not know the intention of a stranger- they might want to rob you or attack you. Instinctively we know that keeping a certain distance enables a person to defend themself better. |
Dude, if someone really wanted to kill you, they could do it. Those extra 18 inches of space aren't going to save you. You sit next to people on the bus and stand next to them in the subway and pass by them all the time.
And who do you think you are? Some high value target? Are you afraid that some random guy on the streets of Korea is going to come at you?
If you're this worried about being attacked and personal space, I have an idea. Stand to the side in an elevator in case some guy with a tommy gun is waiting to blast you as soon as the door opens. There's about as much basis to be afraid of that as there is someone standing close to you on the subway.
| Quote: |
| How many wronged ESL teachers pass on the word that Koreans cannot be trusted- including in business contracts? |
Yeah, the NETs proved really influential in stopping overseas companies such as Coca-Cola, Lush, 7-11, Ralph Lauren, Paula's Choice, etc. from opening up in Korea.
This is borderline delusional.
| Quote: |
| How many foreign tourists flee the country and tell others not to bother visiting?. |
And how many have a blast? I mean, compared to what else might go down in other countries, Korea's sins are relatively benign. Some guy spitting vs. getting mugged at gunpoint tends to offer a sense of perspective.
| Quote: |
| China has had the courage to try and reform their own behaviour, or at least make most people more aware. Why is korea so afraid to do the same thing- to ever admit they are less than perfect? |
Do you seriously think Koreans never try to change cultural behaviors? Good grief, in 5 years I've noticed a difference. Most long-termers can say things are radically different. If anything, Koreans have changed relatively rapidly compared to other countries. |
How many places do you really have to worry about that? Do you have to worry about it in Japan?
I lived in Manhattan for a couple of years, took the subway at all hours, etc. and never once felt threatened.
You are more in danger in Korea as a pedestrian than you are in many places in the world. And that's a result of a lack of respect for pthers' personal space.
You need a new schtick. |
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Lunar Groove Gardener
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: 1987 Subaru
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I agree that it is a bit confounding that there is not a more prevalent
"universal" sense of personal space here in Asian countries...
Last edited by Lunar Groove Gardener on Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Lunar Groove Gardener wrote: |
The guy in the office next to mine whistles really loudly, incessantly. I find it very distracting; I hate it. He has not chosen to stop, so I am forced to put on music loud enough to drown him out.. |
That's a useful point. The invasion of personal space is not only physical, its also by other means.
When someone next to you on the subway yells a "conversation" into their cellphone only 2cm from your ear, they are essentially saying that they are more important than you, they have rights but you don't.
This sort of behaviour is designed to mark territory. The person is aggressively trying to own space at your expense. Often americans enter a room and talk in a massively loud booming voice. They're trying to own the room.
There is also the invasion of psychic space- invasive stares. Westerners and probably most people on earth feel violated by intense stares. |
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420bro
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| In densly populated palces Korean and Chinese personal space is not defined by bodily space but is preserved by not making eye contact. That's why someone will stand on your foot but won't bother to look you in the eyes and say sorry. They preserve their space by avoiding eye contact. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| 420bro wrote: |
| In densly populated palces Korean and Chinese personal space is not defined by bodily space but is preserved by not making eye contact. That's why someone will stand on your foot but won't bother to look you in the eyes and say sorry. They preserve their space by avoiding eye contact. |
That doesn't pass the smell test. |
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candy bar
Joined: 03 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| 420bro wrote: |
| In densly populated palces Korean and Chinese personal space is not defined by bodily space but is preserved by not making eye contact. That's why someone will stand on your foot but won't bother to look you in the eyes and say sorry. They preserve their space by avoiding eye contact. |
It's also defined as not looking where one is going and not giving a rat's tail about others. aka rude |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| candy bar wrote: |
| ...aka rude |
Rude is in the eye of the beholder. You can let yourself get upset as much as you want. Or not at all. Up to you. |
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candy bar
Joined: 03 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| candy bar wrote: |
| ...aka rude |
Rude is in the eye of the beholder. You can let yourself get upset as much as you want. |
No. It's rude.
definition; indifference to others, ignorance. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Do you consider yourself polite to Koreans? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| candy bar wrote: |
| ...aka rude |
Rude is in the eye of the beholder. You can let yourself get upset as much as you want. Or not at all. Up to you. |
Those are two different concepts.
I disagree on the first and agree with the second, but it can be a mighty tough thing to do on a daily basis. |
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