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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| crazylemongirl wrote: |
Homer seems you forgot the obvious one.
You are in a foreign country
You are their guest you live and you live by their rules. The locals eat different food, talk a different language and follow a different set of reasoning. If you want to live your life like you did in canada/aussie/states/kiwiland/england/ireland/southafrica then live there. |
I agree to a point! Whether you are the guest or the host we must all be respected. Just because I am a guest in your home doesn't mean you have the right to impose upon me your every practice and belief.
When we are about to go overseas from Canada, we are told what to do or not do in the host country in order not to offend. Fair enough WITHIN REASON. When foreigners come to Canada, we are again told what to do or not do in order not to offend the guest. Again fair enough WITHIN REASON. What's the deal with this stupid double standard?! It seems that we are the ones doing all the respecting.
When I was in Korea I wanted my beliefs and practices to be respected, which didn�t mean do what I do, but rather leave me alone. So what if I was in a foreign country? How does that make what I believe any less important? For example, I did not want to go around the table and share shooting glasses with Korean men--tradition or no. I did not want to call someone big brother (hyong-nim) just because he was a minute older than me. I found it demeaning. Let us be clear: even if they make me follow their rules, it is by no means a sign of respect on my part. I am simply being succumbed to power, which will create nothing but resentment in me.
Whenever I come across someone who is a new immigrant or a foreigner in Canada, the first thing in my mind is not when in Rome� They can do whatever they want, but could never ask me to join them, just as I would never ask them to join me. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Deconstructor makes a good point. Nobody in their right mind back home would try to take a strict Muslim friend out eating or drinking during the day in Ramadan, unless they had no idea. Koreans have generally been abroad enough to have some idea of the way our cultures work.
I don't like calling people hyong/�� either. Not until I feel like somebody is my brother, and I don't know any men that well here. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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It should not be taken literaly as meaning brother... 
It is simply a form of politeness. That someone would find that demeaning is strange. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Real Reality wrote: |
A Society that Spares Greetings
A police officer said that the expression "sorry" seemed to be very hard to say, adding that people often fight over small things such as saying sorry and came to the police station. There are many people who point out that it is rare to hear basic words like "sorry" or "thank you" in Korean society.... Professor Han said that due to the "rushing modernization," referring to a mad dash to accomplish one's goals such as attaining social success, Korean society is seriously lacking in consideration of other people.
by Yi-Young Cho and Soo-Jung Shin, Donga.com (January 7, 2005)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2005010857368
Koreans Flock to Emigration Fair
"It's hard to work in Korea," said Moon Young-ah, a 38-year-old dental technician came the COEX to get information about emigrating to Canada. "There is always too much to do, too much stress, and not enough free time," he said.
By Mike Weisbart, Korea Times (March 27, 2005)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200503/kt2005032719145611990.htm
More Koreans give up citizenship
Faced with the question to be or not be Korean, a growing number of Korean-Americans are opting for the latter, renouncing their Korean nationality, statistics released by Korean missions in the United States showed yesterday.
by Lee Sun-young, Korea Herald (January 17, 2005)
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2005/01/17/200501170007.asp
We live in an era where the escalating divorce rate, alcoholism, anxiety and depression affect the psyche of every Korean in some way or the other. Just about every Korean suffers from soul-deadening mental, physical or emotional tiredness. Professor Chey would like Koreans to "look inside" and explore their inner worlds. When she returned from the United States nine years ago, she noticed a lot of anger and stress in Seoul. "Koreans tend to think the problem is caused by someone else, that it does not lie within the Self," she said.
"But first of all we must do complete self-examination. Our history testifies that Korean people have lacked serious self-examination," he [Professor Rhee Dong-shick] explained.
Korea Times March 18, 2004
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/culture/200403/kt2004031817153511680.htm
Foreigners Experience Difficulties in Living in Korea
Overall living conditions, including education, housing, medical care, transportation, immigration, and access to the Internet are pointed to as inconveniences. Not only inconveniences caused by different systems and customs in Korea, but also special discriminating practices, such as the practice of submitting two years of monthly rent in advance like a deposit, which is required of foreigners just because they are foreigners, are ubiquitous. "Even though Korea has achieved some degree of globalization in going abroad, it has still a long way to go for globalization in embracing foreigners inward," said foreigners residing in Korea. An official in the International Cooperation Division of Seoul City admitted, "The same complaints regarding visas, transportation, education, and environment are raised every year without being solved, due to the lack of cooperation from government agencies involved and their passive attitudes."
by Jae-Dong Yu and Soo-Jung Shin
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004070522448
Foreigners fear for safety in South Korea
The US embassy warns American citizens to stay away from certain parts of the capital Seoul as a homegrown campaign urges foreigners to leave...
by Conor Purcell, Greatreporter.com (March 17, 2005)
http://www.greatreporter.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=359
Korean 'well-being' slogan for some, not others
By David Scofield (October 20, 2004)
Asia Times - News and analysis from Korea; North and South
http://atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FJ20Dg01.html
Man Cannot Live on Slogans Alone
EU Chamber of Commerce in Korea (EUCCK) President Frans Hampsink had some harsh words for Korea the other day. He said the country has no long-term development plan worthy of the name,... And that's just the free zones: imagine the red tape in the rest of the country. "Few official documents are translated into English," Hampinsk also noted, "and the low standard of accuracy renders understanding of legal provisions difficult." Nothing much has changed, he says, despite repeated requests for deregulation over the past seven to eight years. No action has been taken to match grand slogans like "open commercial country" and "Northeast Asian economic hub."
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200504/200504070040.html |
Do you have these things bookmarked? I'm gonna start taking count of the times you post the link to the article "Foreigner experience difficulties in living in Korea". |
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Swiss James
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
Do you have these things bookmarked? |
tattooed more like |
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jazblanc77
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| #1 - Too argumentative and unable to fathom the concept of "saving face". |
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just because
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Location: Changwon - 4964
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I think the biggest problem is that we drink too much. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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If I were to go out on a limb and make a guess about what was really going on in the original thread, I'd say the OP is suffering from culture shock. It was good to see someone else thought so, too.
One of the symptoms is being highly critical of the host culture. After the honeymoon wears off, expats kind of freak out and rant about all the perceived failures of the culture. It's my contention that we never fully get over it. I said 'fully'. Some just leave but the rest find a livable arrangement but carry that hostility around and it pops out from time to time: 'The ajuma beat me to 'my' subway seat, therefore all Koreans are evil, conniving, duplicitous, arrogant xenophobes who lie in wait at every street corner to cheat and abuse me.'
Any time the response is out of proportion to the trigger, I suspect it's a case of culture shock.
The cure:
1) rest (a nap can cure everything but cancer)
2) a vacation outside the country
3) avoid negative people (You are already overloaded. You can't carry their baggage too.)
4) deliberately focus on the positive experiences--the 'service' you get at the hoff; the friendly smiles; the shared umbrellas |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Well duh. I know hyong's not demeaning. I don't much like calling people hyong, nor do I particularly enjoy being called oppa, nor so I walk with guy friends of mine arm in arm. And yet I still plan on living here for life. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Blind Willie wrote: |
| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| Am I assuming that the way we do things back home is the only possible way? Am I assuming that our way is always better? |
Not always. However, objective comparisons based upon results cannot be avoided. |
If by "objective" you mean "whining, bile-filled" then I agree. |
You know, this "empirical evidence" thing occasionally works in Korea's favour. You should try it some time. You don't want to be seen as someone who gives in to emotional knee-jerk reactions, do you?  |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
It should not be taken literaly as meaning brother...
It is simply a form of politeness. That someone would find that demeaning is strange. |
I understand why you disagree. However, I do not understand why you are confused when Westerners are initially offended by the term. After all, "Big Brother" has negative connotations in Western culture. And let's not forget many Koreans taking offense to seemingly trivial (to us) things such as putting on seatbelts, refusing to drink, or not bowing properly. (You CAN relate to these attitudes, can't you? ). After all, the door swings both ways.
I hope you weren't confused by the rest of Deconstructor's post, which exemplified precisely the level of rationality needed by threads such as these. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jazblanc77 wrote: |
| #1 - Too argumentative and unable to fathom the concept of "saving face". |
Westerners do "save face", just for different reasons. |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer I agree with you basically, but you always come off as being so above it all. That some other foreigners, in which we are both part of the community, are having problems do to their own issues is true, but it��s no reason to make them feel bad or less than successful than you because of it. Instead of pointing out these issues time after time, why not be supportive of other foreigners in the Korean community going through some hard times by trying to help them out with some hands on practicality? Just saying words of advice isn��t really enough, and it sounds a bit obnoxious. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Weatherman,
I started this thread tongue-in-cheek as a response to another thread (its gone now  ) that stated the 5 things that are wrong with Koreans and that had quickly stooped down to a racist bash fest.
Unfortunately that post is gone and my context with it.
I did say in this thread that my list was not to be taken too seriously but I suppose that many responders did not bother to read that part.
As for supporting other foreigners here, I do that at work when new teachers come or when I meet newbies. Supporting foreigners who need help adapting to Korea is a great idea. However, they need to want to adapt before any help is worth it. Sadly, some foreigners do not want to adapt at all and prefer to blame everything and everyone for their troubles.
I do not point out these "issues" time after time for no reason Weatherman. A quick glance at the board will show you how much bashing goes on here on your avg week. Why are threads enumerating the ills of Koreans and Korea ok and threads doing the same about us foreigners not ok?
I am no more successful then anyone. I just live my life here according to a few principles and ideas and it works out for me.
Oh and Ya ta boy:
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| I'd say the OP is suffering from culture shock |
I think not as I have been here for over 7 years.... 
Barking,
Why does Big Brother have a negative connotation in the West? I hope you don't mean because of Orwell...if so, it hardly applies to the use of the term in Korea! |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| weatherman wrote: |
| Homer I agree with you basically, but you always come off as being so above it all. That some other foreigners, in which we are both part of the community, are having problems do to their own issues is true, but it��s no reason to make them feel bad or less than successful than you because of it. Instead of pointing out these issues time after time, why not be supportive of other foreigners in the Korean community going through some hard times by trying to help them out with some hands on practicality? Just saying words of advice isn��t really enough, and it sounds a bit obnoxious. |
I dunno, I guess if someone has to come to Homer's defense it might as wll be me ...
1) There is no shortage of people who will commiserate and give sympathy to folks who are having problems here, all the while giving agreement to the premise that the source of the problem foroegners have in Korea is Korea itself. The fact that Homer prefers to give a little balance to this equation ought not to be a source of annoyance to people - if you're not in the mood to listen, fine, skip over his posts and go on the next guy complaining for the 1000th time about stuff that a handful of waygookin on a message board are never going to change even a little bit.
2) I don't think that understanding the extent to which one causes one's own problems ought to make one feel worse than they might have felt already - in fact, it's a hopeful place to be, since as mentioned, we are not likely to be able to change Korea but we do have some power over our reaction to the place. I remember some particular moment in my first contract here that I fully understand this - Korea will not change just to suit me - and a few moments later I had another realization : I also did not want it to.
3) Corollary to the above, being "supportive" is more than just saying "Yeah, I understand, that happened to me, too." The best way to help a friend going through a problem is to point some things that can actually be done to adjust one's position within the situation - that is, actually make things better. Weaterman, you speak here of "hands on practicality," but there is nothing pragmatic or useful in much of the complaints that go on around here - but there is something pretty useful in coming to some comprehension of the role we ourselves play in our own unhappiness, because that is the realm in which we do have some control and ability to make changes. |
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