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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
I've got a problem with robbing kids of their childhood.
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Absolutely.
Give the poor kids a break sometimes.. sure, a bit of serious study...but the best environment to learn in is a fun and relaxed one. I'll admit to being the gamesmaster of my place, but I space it with effective and relevant bursts of teaching. My kids have a high standard of spoken English- because we all enjoy classes. Theres no point in ramming as much english down their throats as possible. If they grasp one sentence structure or a couple of new words in a lesson, Its enough. |
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Cheonmunka

Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| You can "teach English like a professional" even in kindergarten because I am a certified teacher, and do so. |
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Yu_Bum_suk

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
| You can "teach English like a professional" even in kindergarten because I am a certified teacher, and do so. |
I can teach kindie "like a professional" because you are a certified teacher? I've lost track of how many 'real', 'certified', and 'qualified' teachers can't write anything that makes sense. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Not to mention the rotten punctuation. |
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Saxiif

Joined: 15 May 2003 Location: Seongnam
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
| You can "teach English like a professional" even in kindergarten because I am a certified teacher, and do so. |
Yes, but why bother? The average job that makes you teach kindy is a crappy low-paying job that isn't worth the effort
There are jobs out there that are worth busting you ass and "teaching professionally" for, but the average Korean kindy job isn't one of them. |
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JongnoGuru

Joined: 25 May 2004 Location: peeing on your doorstep
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Here's a stupid question that's sure to win me friends & admirers here.
[MODs, please pop a cap in this post if it deserves it.]
Wouldn't it be desirable for everyone concerned if every Korean kid that age wasn't forced or expected to learn a foreign language?
Would it be such a tragedy to give them that time to play?
Will starting the "Long March" a year or two later matter all that much to Korea's GNP?
Did monolingualism hold back Japan?
Is it holding China back?
Has English fluency made the Philippines an economic world-beater?
Okay, six stupid questions.  |
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Kimchieluver

Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Not stupid questions at all.
I have this one student I taught Kindy my first year here, she was bright, attentative and one of the better ones to teach. She was also the director's daughter.
Now, two years later she is in grade two. I was asked by my current hogkwan and my old one to teach at the old one twice a week (I did all the Immin paperwork).
I have her again. She knows just a little more about English, she is the worst behaved student in the class and she is also the poorest at English. I blame this not only because her dad is the director, but more so that the Korean teacher and the hogkwan in general, automatically passes every student to the next book. Not only that, the KT will let them correct their mistakes before marking the test so that every student is an A student. Also, it is a franchise system.
Why did she bother taking Kindy English? I think it just turned her off. |
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Alias

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| You see your job a joke and you will be a joke (or clown, or whatever). |
She said that she didn't at first. It eventually just becomes so obvious that is what you are considered by the students and the management.
You are not real teachers. |
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Alias

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 3:59 am Post subject: |
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The best thing you can do is get the word out to Korean parents. Hagwons are a scam!
I think I posted this here before but I'll tell it again. During my first year working at a hagwon in Seoul I became friends with an adjuma at a nearby restaurant that I attended frequently. She spoke pretty decent English and had often inquired about the Kids Club that I taught at as she was interested in sending her two sons there. I tried to avoid the topic as best I could because I did not want to be in the awkward situation of promoting a product which I new was garbage.
Finally she told me that my supervisor from work had been eating there for lunch and convinced her to enrole her sons. Since I was in my final month of my contract I felt that it was safe enough to spill the beans. I told her not to waste her hard earned money and that she would be better off getting a private tutor if she wanted.
A month later I was back in Canada and received a not so pleasant e-mail from my supervisor. She found out what I told adjuma Park and informed me that I would not be getting a letter of recommendation from her (although I never asked for one and already secured a position elsewhere)
I know. Telling parents the truth will only hurt us. The less students means less jobs. That is why I teach business English! So get out of hagwon hell while you still can. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Now what was written before, I understand. But, I have students in Kinder whose english is good for thier age and I hope that it will get better. Will it? I don't know, from experience, probably not, but should we punish everyone for the inability of a lot. Maybe some will. Thats why we teach, to see the successes. Even if I never see them, yet maybe others will. |
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Paji eh Wong

Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| agraham wrote: |
Either a lot of people are missing something fundamental or I am:
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I think what your first post is missing is some context. You made a blanket claim statement that "the hagwons are all right" with out any sort of background or statistics. I took your first post to be a personal expression of your time in hagwons. Which is fine, but it's directly opposed to my hagwon experience. And the experience of almost everyone else I've talked to. And, if you look at Real Reality's first link, so do a lot of Koreans.
So if you think your hagwon is great, fine. Tell us about your hagwon and your frame of reference. Then we can evaluate what you have to say.
I'll even go first.
I came to my first hagwon in '02. Their hiring criteria were "white, N American, under 30, has student loans". If you had prior experience or teaching credentials, you were excluded. I taught 8 to 10 classes a day. The school was a franchise affiliated with a major newspaper. The "cirriculum" revolved around teaching the students to read a weekly newspaper to their parents; neither of which understood the article. Students general level of English was terrible. Management was also poor. Turnover was so bad I stopped learning Korean teachers names, because they would simply leave in a month.
The second place I worked was a "good" hagwon. It was run my an American and his Korean wife. The expectations were more reasonable. 30 classes a week, and I could do what I wanted in the classroom. Unfortunately that meant there was no cirriculum. Students generally spoke better english, but there was still no overall plan as far as what was going on in a class. And even if I had time to develope something myself, I was sharing my classes with a Korean teacher, who wanted nothing to do with it. Things were that way, because that's what the market would bear.
Along the way I tried to do a little proffesional developement. I did a TEFL cert, went to KOTESOL meetings, read some books. I've worked my way to the point where I can call myself competent. But that's despite the places I've worked, not because of them. When you tell me that the places I've worked are "allright", in direct opposition to my perception of the last two plus years of my life, then I'm going to get a little testy. |
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Paji eh Wong

Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Ok, first off:
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I've got a problem with robbing kids of their childhood.
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A noble sentiment indeed but what????
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Do I really need to break this down for you?
The OP saw hagwons as a way to protect kids from "violent video games", ie "bad" aspects of childhood. Unfortunately Korean kids spend so much time studying that they get protected from all aspects of childhood. I don't know where you teach, but I've had 10 year olds so exhausted that they can't stay awake for class, and one very memorable 6 year old burnout.
If I was a Korean kid, I'd be very, very bitter at having to trade the bulk of my childhood for what will probably be a mediocre education. Korean kids get screwed and I feel terrible for them.
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| What you get out of the job you have depends a lot on one person: you. |
I've got no problem with taking personal responsibility for my job path. Go read my last post. The bottom line is, I have high expectations. So my job path has taken me right out of the hagwon system. |
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matthews_world
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| PolyChronic Time Girl wrote: |
| ...But I prefer to be an actual educating professional, and I only seek out schools that want a teacher, not a circus clown. |
There was a group of teachers I'd run into when I was out clubbing semi-regularly a few years back. One of them -- a real joker, big party animal -- stopped showing up, and I asked the others what became of him. "Oh him -- he's a clown. He works late. Always busy these days." I'd heard this same thing several times ... "he's a clown", "he's an English clown".
I once spotted him crossing an intersection. "Hey, I saw 'Harry' the other day, walking with his briefcase. Guess he was going to work."
"Yeah, he carries his wig and nose and giant shoes in that briefcase."
"Huh? What do you mean?"
"Hey, we told you we was working as an English clown."
"Damn... I thought you were speaking figuratively!"
It's been years since I last saw or heard of him. He was crazy, though. Big drinker, funny as anything. Zany. They say he's still a big drinker, but only at home. Alone. And he doesn't go out. I've heard there are others plying the clown circuit (circus?) in Korea. Pays well, apparently.
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This belongs in the Freakiest Waygook Forum! I loved it. |
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Paji eh Wong

Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Good questions guru.
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
Wouldn't it be desirable for everyone concerned if every Korean kid that age wasn't forced or expected to learn a foreign language? |
I think foriegn language instruction is valuable, especially in Korea. Even if it is exchanging cultures with the white monkey because most Koreans won't get that anywhere else.
Personally, I hated taking French in high school. But now I wished I had taken some sort of immersion program. My friends and my sisters who went through immersion are far better at learning languages than I am. It's a great skill set to have.
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| Would it be such a tragedy to give them that time to play? |
No. In fact research shows that the most effective learning takes place outside of a classroom.
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| Will starting the "Long March" a year or two later matter all that much to Korea's GNP? |
I'd see it as a good thing. Parents could take some of the money they spend and invest it back into the economy in more productive sectors.
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| Did monolingualism hold back Japan? |
This is me talking out of my ass, but what have they done lately? The Japanese economy has stagnated because they've failed to make the jump from an industrial economy to an information economy. Korea is falling into the same pit, and I see China doing the same thing.
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| Has English fluency made the Philippines an economic world-beater? |
Korea is where it is because of it's work ethic and singlemindedness. That will only get them so far, a point I think we are close to reaching. |
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JongnoGuru

Joined: 25 May 2004 Location: peeing on your doorstep
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| matthews_world wrote: |
This belongs in the Freakiest Waygook Forum! I loved it. |
Well, he was a nice sort. I'd like to say his situation was freakier than he was. Gosh, was he funny and impulsive, though. One of those who you don't dare dare him to do something embarrassing in public, because you'll likely end up having to bribe him NOT to do it.  |
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