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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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I thought you meant "really" bad stuff taught to kids.
"The sun is burning my fleash" (misspelling included)
"What a nice weather we is today!" (actual text)
Stuff like that in Korea, Taiwan and elsewhere. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I think the whole Can I/May I debate is getting silly. If a student uses either one, they'll be communicating fairly effectively, and that's a good thing.
BUT- Koreans kids don't study English just to talk to foreigners, they study it because it will be on the university Entrance exam, and the TOEIC exam. I suspect that the poeple correcting those exams will either accept " Can I" or "May I" as correct, but not both. That's really what it comes down to. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
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| The "rules" of grammar are not important UNLESS they can be used as "rules of thumb" to help a student PRODUCE effective communication. There's nothing wrong with your textbook |
Yeah, right. 
And one day Korean kids will be saying "May you swim?" instead of "Can you swim?" and that will be perfectly fine as well, I suppose. While we're at it, why don't we just toss all the rules out the window! Rules. Hmmph! Who needs 'em?
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Did you even read what I wrote? We are teaching a real world language, not some hypothetical language that's never spoken. If you want to teach abstract grammatical rules that DON'T EXIST IN THE REAL WORLD, take up a job as a Latin instructor.
If Korean kids have good teachers, they will not ask "may you swim?" because they will know the REAL WORLD RULE that "Can" indicates ability. They will also know the REAL WORLD RULE that "Can" is the normal way of asking for permission.
Your job, Mack, is not to force the language to go the way you think it should go. All you'll accomplish is to handicap your students so that they can't function as effectively as the competition when they are in school or business abroad. If you teach your students English instead, you will be doing them a better service. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| I think the whole Can I/May I debate is getting silly. If a student uses either one, they'll be communicating fairly effectively, and that's a good thing. |
I agree that the debate is getting silly and that the student using either is communicating effectively. The bottom line is that both can/may be used and are gramatically correct.
What's really silly is that a week, or so ago, when I pointed out that will and be going to can not be used interchangeably, a 'teacher' said he'd never heard of that and that he wasn't going to teach it. And no, I'm not going to get into the whole future time debate because, after the last time and with some of the attitudes in this debate, even referencing grammatical points doesn't matter - teachers in Korea are going to teach what they damn well please. Poor students. |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
| We are teaching a real world language, not some hypothetical language that's never spoken. If you want to teach abstract grammatical rules that DON'T EXIST IN THE REAL WORLD, take up a job as a Latin instructor. |
If you seem to think that teaching the correct grammatical rules is a waste of time, then I think that you are not only fooling yourself but you are doing an incredible disservice to your students. If you believe in teaching English only as it is used in everyday discourse, then you will end up with students believing that words such as "gonna" and "wanna" are real words. I have Korean friends who were taught that words such as these are legitimate English words to be used in writing. What incredibly bad teachers they had...
The grammar rules are not abstract and they exist for a reason, and with words such as "can" and "may", it is to provide a very useful distinction between ability and permission. If you only teach "can" for both, then how will your students be able to make that distinction succinctly?
I teach (or try to) that "can" is more often used for permission in everyday English, but that "may" is the correct form and that in my classroom they must use "may".
I believe that my job here is not only to teach my students how to communicate effectively, but correctly as well. My best friend is an Australian who communicates very effectively. He says things like "I done it" and while he is able to communicate his meaning to me efffectively, it is by no means correct. I refuse to teach bad or lazy English, and I hope that this will give my students a better grounding in the English language. After they leave my classroom they are free to mangle English in any way they see fit, but I will teach them how to use it correctly first. |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know why some posters are still asserting that using 'can' for permission is somehow wrong! Do you think that modern English Grammar books are incorrect in stating in clear unequivocal terms that can is used both for ability and to ask permission, and that may is more formal? Are you that old that you insist on using antiquated English or are you simply arguing from your own upbringing where your uptight parents forced you to use formal speech in your own home?
To say that grammar rules are rigid, and forever unchangeable is naive and a tad ignorant. I suggest you brush up on your 21st century language skills, throw away those Victorian reference books and invest in some modern grammar texts. |
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d503
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Location: Daecheong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say that I think that most posters here agree that can, can be used for permission. To claim otherwise would imply that they no longer actively participate in the English language.
However, can is not the appropriate way to ask for permission in all situations. In the classroom, with persons of respect, and other places, can is an impolite form to use. Equivalent to 'yeah.' I teach my kids the distinction (well the ones who are past memorizing stock phrases) Korean kids are used to this distinction, their native tongue is rife with it. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
... The grammar rules are not abstract and they exist for a reason, and with words such as "can" and "may", it is to provide a very useful distinction between ability and permission. If you only teach "can" for both, then how will your students be able to make that distinction succinctly?
I teach (or try to) that "can" is more often used for permission in everyday English, but that "may" is the correct form and that in my classroom they must use "may".
I believe that my job here is not only to teach my students how to communicate effectively, but correctly as well. My best friend is an Australian who communicates very effectively. He says things like "I done it" and while he is able to communicate his meaning to me efffectively, it is by no means correct. I refuse to teach bad or lazy English, and I hope that this will give my students a better grounding in the English language. After they leave my classroom they are free to mangle English in any way they see fit, but I will teach them how to use it correctly first. |
I agree with you on several points. We do need to teach students correct English. Grammar rules aren't, by and large, abstract. They do exist for a reason.
So I don't understand why you hold on to the archaic notion that may and can cannot be used interchangeably when several posters have noted and referenced that they can.
For example,
How English Works by M Swan and C Walter:
We use can to ask for and give permission ...
We also use could to ask for permission; it is more polite.
May is used in the same way. It is more formal and less common.
I was taught the same as you must have been, and I got the same 'I know you can, but may you?' stuff that others have written about. But times change. I still have a hard time beginning sentences with but, but I just did.
Embrace the dynamism that is English. |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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gypsyfish, as I said, I do actually teach my students that "can" may often be used for permission, but it is not necessarily the correct way to do it. Yes, several posters have noted that "can" and "may" may be interchangeable, but this is not always true. If you want to indicate permission, using "can" is not a good way to do it, as it does not explicitly state permission. It is idiomatically used to show permission, but it is not grammatically correct - especially in written English.
I probably strike many people as pedantic, but I want to teach the correct forms first, giving my students the best grounding in English that I can.
I love the English language. I love the words and the variations in subtlety possible by using different words. Because of this, I am extremely loathe to lose subtlelties simply because some people are too lazy to retain the differences in meaning between words such as "can" and "may". I don't want to see English become simply a functional language with no thought for grace or elegance or subtle variations in meaning. |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Sleepy in Seoul, stop talking tripe!
Show me one modern grammar book where using can for permission is expressly forbidden.
IT IS GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT TO USE CAN FOR PERMISSION!
To argue otherwise is ludicrous. Get with the times. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| IT IS GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT TO USE CAN FOR PERMISSION! |
It's not correct. It's in common parlance, but it's wrong. |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
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| IT IS GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT TO USE CAN FOR PERMISSION! |
It's not correct. It's in common parlance, but it's wrong. |
Says who? You?
I can reference half a dozen reputable grammar books that state can is used for permission, show me the textbooks that state the opposite. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Can I swim? I dont know can you?
Can I go swimming? perfectly alright
May I swim? Sure
May I go swimming? NO! Go study  |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| fidel wrote: |
| I can reference half a dozen reputable grammar books that state can is used for permission |
fidel, if your books state more than that "can" is used idiomatically for permission, then they are wrong. Or they are American English grammar books in which case they are, of course, wrong.  |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| fidel, if your books state more than that "can" is used idiomatically for permission, then they are wrong. Or they are American English grammar books in which case they are, of course, wrong. |
This thread has had a number of books cited as supporting "can" and "may" to grant permission. If you feel that these books are in error, perhaps you could cite a book that says otherwise. We're three pages into this discussion and have been promised "the books" say that "can" is not used when giving permission, yet no one has listed a book that says that despite requests for it.
While you may disagree with American sources, even the British say it's fine.
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archive/modal_verbs02.html
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Permission
We use may and can to give permission. The past is conveyed by was/were allowed to:
You may come in now, children.
Can we smoke in here? |
Yes, ages ago when gay meant happy, hacker meant someone who couldn't use a computer, and "won't" wasn't even a real word, "can" was not used to give permission. The language changed. Denying it will not force the world to conform to your wishes. |
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