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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| waggo wrote: |
| It was a wasnt a war...if it was a war Britain would have won in about 10 seconds.Ive always thought of the IRA as a bunch of pathetic gangsters...It was all about their egos....Look at Omagh...what on earth was the point of that? Very brave men. |
The Omagh bomb was not planted by the Provisional IRA. It was a splinter group (who are calling themselves Continuity IRA) who, unlike the provos, refused any ceasefire. They are the dissidents I was referring to in my earlier post.
The whole point of being a geurilla organisation is that you know you can't beat the enemy in a head-on fight. To try so would be stupid. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Of all the prophets of the worlds main religions Allah was the one that placed the greatest importance on knowledge, learning and living in peace with other peoples. |
Firstly, I think you mean Mohammed, not Allah. And the notion that this caravan raiding paedophile did what you just wrote is ludicrous in the extreme.
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| Even if he himself was constantly attacked. If you ever read anything about his life you might be impressed. |
Having sex with 8 year old girls, raping captured slave girls, wiping out enemies ruthlessly. No, I am not impressed in the slightest.
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| He was born into a time when murder, human-sacrafice and war were impossibly common place. |
And he continued very much in the same vein.
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| Out of a barren desert land, known only for murder and pillage, he managed to pull together one of the worlds greatest civilisations. |
No, he didn't. He managed to pull together disparate Arab tribes under his rule. Islamic civilization came after Mohammed.
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| His grandsons ruled in a time of unparalleled study and advancements in science. Brilliant arabic literature and especially love poems survive to this day. |
And because they have now fallen down the civilizational ladder we have to put up with their tantrums (aka terrorist attacks)?
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| Indeed islam was so successful that it spread like wildfire around the middle east and even as far as indonesia. |
It spread as it has always spread. Invasion, rape and pillage. Islamic tactics of persuasion can be seen in all their glory in Sudan.
You also make the tired case that Iraq is causing the terrorist onslaught, ignoring that 9-11, Bali and numerous other Islamic terrorist attacks occured before Iraq. 9-11 occured before Afghanistan. I guess the USA had that coming because of its support for the Jews! Exactly what do you propose to stop Islamic terrorism. Invite them over for a cup of tea and a chat? |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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And he continued very much in the same vein.
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... again, I'm not saying he didn't get his hands dirty. Men are as the time is, and muhammed was not just a prophet but also a ruler. He directly controlled cities in the middle east. Sure he had blood on his hands, but as a ruler you sometimes have to make tough decisions and punish evil doers. Either that, or you die.
... isn't 'an eye for an eye' a tenent of christianity ? If you really want to to see a maniac in action, go to the old testament and read about the prophet joseph. At a time when his people were in danger, Joseph and his people accepted sanctuary on the land of his neighbours, under the condition that the two nations be a peace indefinitely. When the danger had passed, Joseph slaughtered his protectors, and their children. Look in your own backyard before you start abusing others peoples. Islam is the arabic word for peace.
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It spread as it has always spread. Invasion, rape and pillage. Islamic tactics of persuasion can be seen in all their glory in Sudan.
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... not true, the majority of islamic nations today were never conquered by the arabs. Look at indonesia, it's islamic and was never conquered. And besides, it's hardly realistic for christians to start condeming arabs for conquering other nations and then indoctrinating them with their beliefs ... South America, Africa, North America, China were all at one time conquered and converted by christians (with varying degrees of success).
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Exactly what do you propose to stop Islamic terrorism. Invite them over for a cup of tea and a chat?
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No, but I would like it if people actually thought it through, and stopped using the 'war on terror' errode my human rights and sponsor armament sales. I support the fight on terrorism, I support the poice and the army and however else who's job it is to stop innocent people from being blown up on buses and in building etc... But I'm skeptical of how long this can go on, and how long we can fight a war with an invisible enemy. I believe that chairman mao had it about right when he compared terrorists to small fish in a pool, if you put your hand to catch them they swim away. The best way to get them - lessen the pool. The pool here is main stream arab opinion.
The west has treated the arabic nations badly in the past (and present). We have to admit this to ourselves, like we did with slavery, american indians etc... The invasion of Iraq was a sponsored war by large american corporations and oil companies. These people have insulted a nation, and made a fortune in the process. The innocent people of london, new york, rome are paying the price for the greed of a few. I don't think we should forget this and get distracted by all this 'war on terror' stuff, most of which is just an appeal to ultra nationalism. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
| I'm not saying he didn't get his hands dirty. |
hardly a credible prophet/moral example then. He was a sly and ruthless cult leader. As a warmonger he tricked and betrayed, attacked at night, and slaughtered women and children.
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| Men are as the time is, and muhammed was not just a prophet but also a ruler. He directly controlled cities in the middle east. Sure he had blood on his hands, but as a ruler you sometimes have to make tough decisions and punish evil doers. Either that, or you die. |
What you are doing is admitting that he was human. Not divinely inspired. Jesus was not a cunning strategist, and his message does not depend on violence for its spread.
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| ... isn't 'an eye for an eye' a tenent of christianity ? |
You're referring to the old testament, which documents old law before jesus arrived. The new testament stands as a correction of all that.
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| Islam is the arabic word for peace. |
No, it means "surrender".
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| South America, Africa, North America, China were all at one time conquered and converted by christians (with varying degrees of success). |
What you're refferring to is colonisation, imperialism.
Nobody was ever forced to convert to christianity at gunpoint. Haven't you heard of missionaries? They provided people with medicine, education and a better life. They taught whoever would listen, but never tried to spread christianity by force. It was optional. The lie is that missionaries infiltrated other cultures to soften them up/prepare them for colonisation. Untrue. Missionaries were against that. David livingstone, one of the first white men in Africa, went to great lengths to hide the fact that parts of Africa were rich with gold.
By contrast, lets look at Muhammads teachings:
Koran 8:7 ��Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ��Wipe the infidels [non-Muslims] out to the last.����
Koran 8:39 ��So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.��
Koran 8:59 ��The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah��s enemy.��
Koran 8:60 ��Prepare against them [non-Muslims] whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah [non-Muslims], and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah��s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.��
Islam and Terrorism
Koran 9:5 ��When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers [non-Muslims] wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war��. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Dbee
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| The american forces would have responded in kind, in anyway they could, and very probably did. If you think of it in those terms George Washington was the Osama bin Laden of the 18th century. All the delegates who signed the declaration of independence were guilty of high treason ... |
If you are not redirected to the link within five seconds click here.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=42427&start=0 |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| The best way to get them - lessen the pool. The pool here is main stream arab opinion. |
How do you propose we lessen this pool then? Also, how do you account for the plethora of terrorist atrocities before Iraq? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| The west has treated the arabic nations badly in the past (and present). We have to admit this to ourselves, like we did with slavery, american indians etc... The invasion of Iraq was a sponsored war by large american corporations and oil companies. These people have insulted a nation, and made a fortune in the process. The innocent people of london, new york, rome are paying the price for the greed of a few. I don't think we should forget this and get distracted by all this 'war on terror' stuff, most of which is just an appeal to ultra nationalism |
that is not true
Futhermore Saddam and Khomeni and Bin Laden have/had been at war with the US for a long time.
By the way can you tell us why the mideast street never got mad when Saddam gassed the Kurds or when Khomeni killed tens of thousands or when Hafaz Assad destroyed the city of Hama?
The US had far more just reasons for taking down Saddam then they had for those actions.
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| Out of a barren desert land, known only for murder and pillage, he managed to pull together one of the worlds greatest civilisations. His grandsons ruled in a time of unparalleled study and advancements in science. Brilliant arabic literature and especially love poems survive to this day. Indeed islam was so successful that it spread like wildfire around the middle east and even as far as indonesia. The fields of Maths, astronomy, architecture are what they are today because of the work of arabs scholars during this time. It was when this knowledge came flooding into europe from constantinople during the middle ages that helped kickstart the renaissance. |
that is true. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:40 am Post subject: |
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What you are doing is admitting that he was human. Not divinely inspired. |
... muhammed was human, so was jesus, although they claimed to be inspired by the devine. muhammed himself admitted that he was human and open to making mistakes, there was a tale about him ignoring a poor man and instead preaching to a rich one. He later came back and admitted his mistake.
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Jesus was not a cunning strategist, and his message does not depend on violence for its spread.
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... just because I'm defending muhammed, doesn't mean that I don't admire jesus and his teachings. But Jesus was adept at strategy and manipulation. Also, of all the main prophets jesus was the only one who claimed that he was the only path to the divine ... 'you have no way to god but me'. Christianity advocates aggressive conversion tactics, most other religions respect the right of others to find their own path to god (even if some of their rulers do not).
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You're referring to the old testament, which documents old law before jesus arrived. The new testament stands as a correction of all that.
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... I'm about as far away from being a religious scholar as you can get so I'm on thin ice here, but as far as I understand it the new testament was more along the lines of a development. It didn't correct or replace the old testament and it still is included in the bible obviously. I don't believe that christians can just distance themselves from the teaching of the old testament when it doesn't suit their argument.
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Having sex with 8 year old girls, raping captured slave girls, wiping out enemies ruthlessly. No, I am not impressed in the slightest.
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... again, look to your own backyard before you start pointing the finger at other people. The following is a decree made by Moses on how to deal with prisoners during his war with the miridians.
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Numbers 31:15-18
kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the little girls among the women, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves
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... moses is the main prophet of Judaism, I think it's fair to say that if someone was to come onto this forum and start slagging off the jews like some people have been slagging off the muslims, they'd be called a nazi, anti-semite among other things
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Nobody was ever forced to convert to christianity at gunpoint. Haven't you heard of missionaries? They provided people with medicine, education and a better life.
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... that's a huge distortion of history, I'm not saying that it didn't happen in places, but the fact remains that whole civilisations were wiped out over night and genocide was not uncommon. For centuries the justification of colonization was the spread of christianity. Sometimes the missionaries were on hand to convert those that were still alive after everybody else had their way
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If you are not redirected to the link within five seconds click here.
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??????
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How do you propose we lessen this pool then? Also, how do you account for the plethora of terrorist atrocities before Iraq?
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... treat muslims and muslim nations with the respect that they deserve, stop the ongoing policy of divide, destabilize and conquer that we've been using against them for decades.
... we were raping the middle east for decades before the latest Iraq war
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By the way can you tell us why the mideast street never got mad when Saddam gassed the Kurds or when Khomeni killed tens of thousands or when Hafaz Assad destroyed the city of Hama?
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... because a christian killing a muslim is a concern of all muslims, but a muslim killing a muslim is a regional concern. I'm sure that many muslims were extremely mad after these killings, they just weren't mad at us. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
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[quote="dbee"]
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| there was a tale about him ignoring a poor man and instead preaching to a rich one. He later came back and admitted his mistake. |
Jesus didn't make any mistakes. Obviously Munahammad died before he could correct all his Orders to ruthlessly kill everybody until only muslims remain on earth.
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| But Jesus was adept at strategy and manipulation. |
How so?
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| Christianity advocates aggressive conversion tactics |
I would hardly call someone trying to talk to you, and leaving when you say you're not interested, aggressive. Not compared to what islam has in mind.
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| It didn't correct or replace the old testament and it still is included in the bible obviously. |
It is included to show how bad things were before the saviour arrived.jesus actually said that the old laws no longer applied. his idea was not military recommendations to save people from their enemies, but from themselves. The old testament is more for Jews.
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| .. moses is the main prophet of Judaism, I think it's fair to say that if someone was to come onto this forum and start slagging off the jews like some people have been slagging off the muslims, they'd be called a nazi, anti-semite among other things |
but the jews are not ordered to kill all other people until they dominate the earth. Just, occupy the land god has granted for them.
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| For centuries the justification of colonization was the spread of christianity. |
It was moreso to advance the civilisation of European powers. Some cited christianity where it was useful for them to do so, however nobody has been put to death in the name of jesus.Missionaries operated independently of government imperialism, operating in many countries which were not marked for colonialisation and long before the queen thought "I'll have that".
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| ... we were raping the middle east for decades before the latest Iraq war |
You mean, enriching them by trading with them. They were not colonised. Plenty other nations were, but have not resorted to attacking the west for decades afterward.
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| ... because a christian killing a muslim is a concern of all muslims, but a muslim killing a muslim is a regional concern. I'm sure that many muslims were extremely mad after these killings, they just weren't mad at us. |
Once muslims have killed all infidels in their midst, they then start killing eachother because some don't wear hijabs while others do, etc. Even if the west would entirely capitulate to Islam, and the whole world became Muslim, there would still not be peace, as history shows they are more adept at killing eachother than they are infidels.
Just judge by the fruits...Freedom, advancement and prosperity has followed in the wake of Christianity everywhere. It is an optional religion, not violently forced upon anybody.It does not threaten its followers with death for dressing in a certain way, behaving in a different way, or having illicit sex.
Muslims have advanced everywhere by killing and intimidation. And now they've opened a new front in Europe. Do you see people rushing to study at middle east universities? No, because they are not the centre of learning and development that the Christian-based west has become. So one muslim wrote a few poems and stumbled across algebra? So?? it doesn't come close to the free society and quality of life in the west. |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I don't think there is anything wrong *in principle* with the establishment of a Caliphate, although it would be a very tall order even leaving aside the Sunni/Shiite schism. Islam means submission to God, which means agreeing to live according to Islamic law and only Islamic law, and also means accepting all other Muslims as brothers, so this explains why the idea of the Caliphate is so popular among ordinary Muslims. Yet there is a total failure by governments in Islamic countries to even attempt to create a political movement for unification.
Anyway, my point is that 'Caliphate' doesn't have to be a dirty word. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Anyway, my point is that 'Caliphate' doesn't have to be a dirty word. |
If you're a woman, a religious minority, gay or an atheist, it certainly is. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| Anyway, my point is that 'Caliphate' doesn't have to be a dirty word. |
If you're a woman, a religious minority, gay or an atheist, it certainly is. |
I think most people on here realise that. Its just that they won't shift from their determination to try and see the best in Islam, and nothing will change that.
But what good points does it have? I'd love to know! can any of the pro- muslim lobby on here fill me in? |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Jesus didn't make any mistakes. Obviously Munahammad died before he could correct all his Orders to ruthlessly kill everybody until only muslims remain on earth.
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... I think that you're making the same mistake here that I made earlier. You have to seperate the god from the prophet. If you believe in Jesus then you have to believe in the teachings of Jesus. Jesus told us that he was a prophet from the abrahamic tradition. His god was the same god that instructed Moses, Abraham and all the others. Judaism, Islam and Christianity all wordship the same god. All of their prophets tell us that their is a one true god, the names Allah, Yahew and God are just language translations of the central idea of monotheism (which by the way came from zoaroastrianism - the worlds oldest religion). If you believe that jesus was in fact a messanger of god, then you believe in the same god which empowered moses (among others) to rape and plunder etc... if he did that, then why do you find it strange that he would empower muhammed to do the same ?
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But Jesus was adept at strategy and manipulation.
How so?
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... firstly, when jesus was brought up on blasphemy charges by the jewish coucil for claiming that he was the 'son of god', he didn't simply sit there and tell them to lump it. His defence was that by their own scriptures all men were the 'son of god'. By seperating the literal meaning 'son of god' from the figurative meaning 'son of god', he manipulated their texts for his own benefit. The way I see it, this is kinda like going to court and getting off on a technicality because you know the system. Sure everyone is 'son of god', but we both know that when jesus said this, he meant it literally
... secondly in his defence of his teaching with regards to loyalty. He was asked how people could be loyal to god, when it was the roman empire that commanded their loyalty. "Are you inciting treason" was the subtext here. His answer was 'give to rome what is rome's and give to god what is gods'. This statement was the epoch of the seperation of church and state as we know it. It made his legacy a powerful one, because now leaders could command the loyalty of different peoples/religions under the one banner. He knew that this was a loaded question and he side-stepped it deftly.
I think that these actions were both strategic and manipulative for the time, even if they seem divine and inspirational from where we sit today.
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Christianity advocates aggressive conversion tactics
I would hardly call someone trying to talk to you, and leaving when you say you're not interested, aggressive. Not compared to what islam has in mind.
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... christianity has been without a doubt the worlds most aggressive religion up to this point. Both in terms of lands conquered and peoples subverted. Jesus stated that 'their is no way to god, but through me' leaders throughout the ages have used this as an excuse to conquer and subvert other peoples ... afterall, if they aren't conquered and subverted then they'll die heathens and be condemned to eternal damnation. So when you think about it like that, invading and killing others peoples is really what's best for them in the long run, or so the logic goes.
Is jesus responsible for invasions conducted in his name in the following centuries ???
Is muhammed responsible for the suicide bombers in london/new york ??
If you ask me it's just a matter of interpretation. The koran included incitemenets to warfare on non-muslims, it also included instructions that peace should be made with non-believers. The bible was by both sides as an inspiration to the massive wars that broke out in europe around the time of the reformation.
... and by the way, I would deem it aggressive to set up a church univited in a foreign land and then preach to all the inhabitants that if they don't pray to your god they'll all spend eternity in hell. Parts of Ireland still have small protestant communities out on the western islands. These people were converted during the potato famine by protestant missionaries. The deal back then was that you convert or you starve to death. Having said that though, a lot of work done by missionaries throughout history (and present day) is done out of genuine good-will and benevolance.
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but the jews are not ordered to kill all other people until they dominate the earth. Just, occupy the land god has granted for them.
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... but what if those 'sacred lands' are occupied by someone else at the time. What if god gets greedy and decides that the jews should also invade, say ... Egypt.
Everybody fights their wars in gods name.
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You mean, enriching them by trading with them. They were not colonised.
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... no I don't
... they were ruled, but not colonised. It would be almost impossible for europeans of the age to colonise a desert land.
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Freedom, advancement and prosperity has followed in the wake of Christianity everywhere. It is an optional religion, not violently forced upon anybody.It does not threaten its followers with death for dressing in a certain way, behaving in a different way, or having illicit sex.
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... not anymore it doesn't, but it used to do that all the time. Muslims never came up with a Spanish inquisition, or the banishment of all jews from Spain, where were the christian churches when the jews were been slaughtered in Auschwitz ?
... I'm going to stop writing now  |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
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| Anyway, my point is that 'Caliphate' doesn't have to be a dirty word. |
If you're a woman, a religious minority, gay or an atheist, it certainly is. |
I think most people on here realise that. Its just that they won't shift from their determination to try and see the best in Islam, and nothing will change that.
But what good points does it have? I'd love to know! can any of the pro- muslim lobby on here fill me in? |
It's going to be harder to see the good points because their economy is in the toilet and doesn't look like it will come up anytime soon. Additionally, Muslim nations are kept broken up via longstanding US policy in the same way and for similar reasons that France kept Germany broken up during the Thirty Year's War. It's true that the extremism is not merely a result of the poverty and oppression (indeed, a lot of oppression should normally clamp down on extremism) and has roots in current religious problems within Islam, but I think you're regularly too harsh against the Muslim world as it stands. After all, I think you overlook the several Muslim countries that have had marginal to real success and have overcome adversity (Indonesia, Tunisia, etc...). |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| treat muslims and muslim nations with the respect that they deserve, stop the ongoing policy of divide, destabilize and conquer that we've been using against them for decades.... we were raping the middle east for decades before the latest Iraq war |
Really lets see the US defended MUSLIM Kurds from Saddam and defended KOSOVO from Slobidan.
The US has given 2 B a year to Egypt. The US has had good relations with Indonesia and Pakistan , those are second and third and fourth biggest muslim nations.
by the way in Indonesia the US supported the muslims against the communists.
The US also saved muslims in Kuwait.
The US has good relations w/ India where there are more muslims than anywhere else.
Those four nations have more than half the worlds muslim population.
Lets throw in Bangladesh then the US has had good relations with the five biggest muslim nations and the majority of muslims.
that the US has been bad to muslims is more or less a cliche
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| ... because a christian killing a muslim is a concern of all muslims, but a muslim killing a muslim is a regional concern. I'm sure that many muslims were extremely mad after these killings, they just weren't mad at us. |
Well Robert Fisk before he got silly wrote this.
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As usual in the Arab world, everyone knew what was happening and no one said a thing. The British and American pilots flying the pointless southern "no-fly" zone �� allegedly to protect Iraq's minorities �� could clearly see the receding waters of the Marsh. The Arab regimes remained silent. Neither Mubarak nor Arafat nor Assad nor Fahd uttered the mildest word of criticism, any more than they did when the Kurds were gassed. |
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0519-02.htm |
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