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Are Christians Who Practice Premarital Sex Hypocrites?
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SuperHero

Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Superhero Hideout

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject:

magicwolfman wrote:

Sins of the flesh are a bit different.

I am christian and my understanding of sin is that all sins are equal in the eyes of God.

Lying to your mother about not doing your homework is equivalent to pleasuring yourself while watching pornography. A sin is a sin.

To answer the OP, I don't see it as hypocrisy unless the person will not admit that they too sin. Setting a standard and failing to achieve it is no equivalent to hypocrisy. If however one were to constantly berate others about their sin and how they are going to burn in hell while at the same time ignoring ones own sin, that would clearly be hypocrisy.

Quote:

Matthew 7:3-5
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject:

magicwolfman wrote:

I am not casting stones, just quoting the unfailing truth of God's Word. If this is too harsh, than maybe you should examine your own heart.

Sins of the flesh are a bit different.

But why are you quoting?

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (James 1:19).

"37. Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and it shall be forgiven to you. 38. Give, and it shall be given to you. Good measure, and pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall they give into your bosom: for the same measure, with which you measure, shall be measured again to you. (Again.) 41. And why seest thou a straw in thy brother's eye, and perceivest not a beam which is in thine own eye? 42. Or how will thou be able to say to thy brother, Brother, allow me to pull out the straw which is in thine eye, while thou seest not the beam which is in thine eye? Hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine eye, and then thou shalt see clearly, that thou mayest cast out the straw which is in thy brother's eye." (Luke 6). (By the way, I think that answers the OP's question...)

Perhaps you could explain how you battled your own personal sins before trying to teach others how to live their lives? Have you ever struggled with homosexual desires?

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject:

[quote="SuperHero"]

Quote:

Heh, I almost quoted Matthew, but I prefer Luke's version. Smile

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject:

hypnotist wrote:

I am no believer in casual sex (although I've used the Kermo/Clinton strict definition to get round defining some of the other things I've done as sex) but I do absolutely believe in premarital sex. Not just approve of, but believe in the necessity of.

Oh, terrific! If I have one legacy at Dave's, let it be this one.

magicwolfman

Joined: 01 Sep 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject:

SuperHero wrote:

magicwolfman wrote:

Sins of the flesh are a bit different.

Quote:

You are wrong my friend

Scripture shows that in God's estimate some sins are worse and bring greater guilt than others, and that some sins do us more damage. Moses rates the golden calf debacle a great sin (Ex. 32:30). Ezekiel in his horrific allegory says that after Oholah (Samaria) had ruined herself by unfaithfulness to God, Oholibah (Jerusalem) "became more corrupt �� in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister" (Ezek. 23:11, ESV). John distinguishes sins that do and do not inevitably lead to death (1 John 5:16), picking up Jesus' warning about the unforgivable sin (Mk. 3:28-30).

First is the extent to which the transgressors know better, are in the public eye, and are objects of public trust, "guides to others, and whose example is likely to be followed by others." For instance, there is Solomon in 1 Kings 11:9-10 and the unwise servant in Luke 12:48-49—trusted persons knowingly sinning; Nathan describing David's sin with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 12:7-10; and Jews who set themselves up as guides to godliness in Romans 2:17-23.

Second come transgressions categorized by persons offended, ranging from the Father, the Son, and the Spirit to "any of the saints, particularly weak brethren." For example, there are those publicly dishonoring Christ in Hebrews 10:28-29; and those who cause people to stumble in Matthew 18:6, Romans 14:13-15, and 1 Corinthians 8:9-12.

Third comes the extent to which, defying conscience and censures from others, the transgressors act "deliberately, willfully, presumptuously, impudently, boastfully, maliciously, frequently, obstinately, with delight, continuance, or relapsing after repentance." Thus we find cumulative defiance of God in Jeremiah 5:8 and Amos 4:8-11; disregard of conscience and correction in Romans 1:32 and Matthew 18:15-17; and falling from grace in 2 Peter 2:20-22.

Fourth is "circumstances of time and place," which make the bad worse—for example, joining sin with hypocritical religiosity in Ezekiel 23:37-39, and involving others in one's sin in 1 Samuel 2:22-24.

Finally, there is the unforgivable sin—such resistance to the light of Spirit-taught truth about the deity and grace of Jesus Christ as rules out all possibility of faith and repentance, hence its lethal consequence. Its nature is evident from Matthew 12:31-32 and Mark 3:28-30.

Please dont tell me that you are trying to equate having unpure thoughts about your neighbor and committing adultry the same.

magicwolfman

Joined: 01 Sep 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:18 pm Post subject:

[quote="hypnotist"]

magicwolfman wrote:

I am not casting stones, just quoting the unfailing truth of God's Word. If this is too harsh, than maybe you should examine your own heart.

Sins of the flesh are a bit different.

But why are you quoting?

There are many examples in the old testament about people being called by God to go to wicked areas to tell about pending judgement upon them. I do not want to end up like poor jonah, because of my disobedience. I do not hate any poster here, just think some of the lifestyles that they engage in are not God honoring.

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

So, how are people who claim to follow Christianity, but also practice premarital sex (i.e., routinely violating one of the tenants of that religion), not behaving hypocritcally?

My understanding of the ultimate meaning of following Christianity is finding a relationship of love with God through Jesus Christ and his teachings.

The Bible is in places contradictory, but does make that quite clear, I think. In addition, it's been interpreted that promiscuity that interferes with the marriage covenant is the sin - in which case, premarital sex as a precursor to marriage may not be a sin. I don't know. I believe the Greek word interpreted as "sexual immorality" or "fornication" is porneia, which could be interpreted as 'any sexual relationship not fitting Jewish law' - however it could also be interpreted as 'whoredom'. He uses this when describing grounds for 'divorce' (which is more a separation since no remarriage would be possible). If you take the latter interpretation of the Greek, all the stone walls about homosexuality, about sex before marriage and so on are at risk of crumbling down. (Note that in Matthew 15:19 and Mark 7:21 Jesus uses this word porneia. Reread those passages with the definition 'whoredom' and see what a different light they take on...). There are however many different interpretations of that word, even within other parts of the Bible itself.

(It's worth noting that many of MW's arguments depend on one very specific interpretation of said word...)

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject:

magicwolfman wrote:

You are wrong my friend

Scripture shows that in God's estimate some sins are worse and bring greater guilt than others, and that some sins do us more damage.

Ok, I'll treat you seriously for once.

If this is true, why is there only Heaven and Hell? At what degree of 'sinfulness' does God condemn someone to Hell?

The Universalists have struggled with this question too. Do you agree with their answers?

blunder1983

Joined: 12 Apr 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject:

A more pertinent and answerable question I find asking myself is that if MW is right then do I want to live in that kind of heaven, filled to the brim with self satisfied arrogant people who are completely intolerrant of other peoples views. Interestingly enough MWs heaven would be my hell. So I'm kinda boned if he's right, its hell whatever I do!! I know little about the bible, but sin is sin is sin and as far as I knew if you took Jesus into your heart then you'd be cleansed. Still its poor planning on god's part, all he had to do was make it so ur sex organs didnt grow until you said "I do" and fell off if you tried it on with anyone else. Blunder!

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject:

magicwolfman wrote:

There are many examples in the old testament about people being called by God to go to wicked areas to tell about pending judgement upon them. I do not want to end up like poor jonah, because of my disobedience. I do not hate any poster here, just think some of the lifestyles that they engage in are not God honoring.

In the OT, yes. Jesus changed Man's contract with God.

Plus, those people were explicitly called by God (as was Jonah). Did God explicitly tell you to come onto Dave's and save us all?

magicwolfman

Joined: 01 Sep 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject:

hypnotist wrote:

magicwolfman wrote:

You are wrong my friend

Scripture shows that in God's estimate some sins are worse and bring greater guilt than others, and that some sins do us more damage.

Heaven/hell is not based on "how many or what sins you commit" but sincere repentence from these sins and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. There is only one sin that is unpardonable...

Jesus said that "he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness" (Mark 3:29).

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject:

magicwolfman wrote:

hypnotist wrote:

magicwolfman wrote:

You are wrong my friend

Scripture shows that in God's estimate some sins are worse and bring greater guilt than others, and that some sins do us more damage.

So why does it matter how seriously a sin is regarded? How do some sins do greater damage [your words]?

Please, resolve the apparent contradiction in your answers.

magicwolfman

Joined: 01 Sep 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject:

hypnotist wrote:

magicwolfman wrote:

In the OT, yes. Jesus changed Man's contract with God.

Plus, those people were explicitly called by God (as was Jonah). Did God explicitly tell you to come onto Dave's and save us all?

Did not Jesus lead a group of apostles, and commanded them (and all Christians) to go out into the world and preach the gospel

Mark 16:15 - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

magicwolfman

Joined: 01 Sep 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject:

hypnotist wrote:

So why does it matter how seriously a sin is regarded? How do some sins do greater damage [your words]?

Please, resolve the apparent contradiction in your answers.

The degree of the sin does not matter in hypocracy (the topic), it is in my opinion the repentence and the fact that you are engaging in this act with another individual.

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:27 pm Post subject:

magicwolfman wrote:

Did not Jesus lead a group of apostles,

Yes.

Quote:

and commanded them

Yes.

Quote:

(and all Christians)

No.

Quote:

to go out into the world and preach the gospel

Yes.

Quote:

Mark 16:15 - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

(My emphasis)

And the gospels were indeed written (including that of Thomas, which seems to have been mysteriously excluded from the Bible), and they are there for anyone seeking to save themselves in a Christian sense to read.

Jesus emphatically did not ask magicwolfman to come to Dave's and convert the unbelievers. You've not answered my previous question as to whether God did, though.

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