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Red
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Where is Beelzebub in the bible? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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The Vedic version is that there is "human" (400,000 different types of humans, most with more pyschic power than we have...) life on every planet, but our ordinary "earth planet" eyes aren't capable of seeing forms more subtle than our own mostly water-earth-blend bodies. Since the spirit-soul cannot be destroyed it can even be covered with a "fire body" and live on the sun.
Anyway, there are basically three categories of planets: heavenly, hellish, and "middle" planets. Jupitor and Venus are listed among planets that are heavenly; Mars and Saturn are hellish; and Earth is classified as a middle planet in that it's usually neither too heavenly nor too hellish.
In the Srimad Bhagavatam vivid descriptions of various hellish planets are given in the Fifth Canto, chapter 26. Among the many listed is one planet tailored for certain types of liars. They are forced to free-fall from a high mountain peak into what appears to be a body of water - but which is in fact solid rock - and their bodies are smashed to pieces. But their -specially tailored for this kind of hell - bodies are reassembled and forced to ascend the mountain and free-fall smash into rocks again-and-again.
It must seem like an eternity, but it's only for one lifetime. (I won't even get into the types of hell awaiting various sex offenders...) The photo I posted earlier on this thread (I think) is the cover-art from that volume, and it depicts Lord Shiva doing his mystic "dance of destruction" at the time of the dissolution of each material universe. I guess I'll post it again:
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:59 am Post subject: |
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14And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. So it was, when the demon had gone out, that the mute spoke; and the multitudes marveled. 15But some of them said, ��He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.�� 16Others, testing Him, sought from Him a sign from heaven. 17But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: ��Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. 18��If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub. 19��And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20��But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21��When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace.
Luke 11
RT there is only one hell. Those who reject the gospel of Christ. Lord Shiva is only a demon who follows her master Satan. Her future is in the lake of fire with all the other demons. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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I beg to differ. (By the way, Lord Shiva is a male, and his wife is the material energy personified...) The original religion on this planet was that of ancient India, and the Vedas were first spoken millions of years ago in Sanscrit - a much more sophisticated language than Greek or Hebrew - what to speak of English which is getting more and more degraded all the time
Different religious systems were inspired by God to appeal to different types of people with different levels of understanding. Lord Jesus' particular preaching mission was in a rough neighbohood compared to the more civilized people living in India so he did not elaborate or philosophize more than could be appreciated by the simple desert dwelling prople. My understanding is that Jesus never denied that there were other authorized representatives of God (Christ is a name for God, but the Father is a separate, distinct personality from Jesus - though they are one in desire...) There is also evidence that Jesus as a young man spent a lot of time in India (Aquarian Gospel of Jesus is accepted as authentic by some theologians) and that he returned there (known as Isis) after the "resurrection" and ultimately ascended from this world while situated in Kashmere. (There is still a shrine there for Isis, and I've heard that there is evidence regarding this in the archives of the Russain Orthodox Church...)
There is no harm in considering your own personal spiritual savior to be the best and most merciful. Unfortunately, sectarian, materialistic, man-made (sometimes paranoid) interpretations of the word of God have resulted in many sects with mainly sentimental understandings of Truth claiming that only they have a monopoly on God - leading to fanaticism.
Bhakti yoga - the practice of becoming God conscious - is non-sectarian and does not seek or require any religious conversion. Pure Christianity is also bhakti yoga because it focuses on developing love of God through devotional service. If you are a Christian (and I still have complete faith in Jesus) it is just recommended that you become a better Christian by really following the Ten Commandments (especially "Thou Shalt Not Kill " regarding the unnecessary killing of harmless living creatures) and engaging wholeheartedly in glorifying Jesus and God (Christ or Jehovah or any other bona fide name referring to the Supreme Lord) ... Be wary of so-called religious leaders who intentionally (or ignorantly) stress differences among religious traditions for personal material profit and fame...or just for the hell of it. |
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Red
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| 14And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. So it was, when the demon had gone out, that the mute spoke; and the multitudes marveled. |
Not being able to speak is caused by demons?
While I'm at it, whay are there so many supernatural beings in the Bible when god is supposed to be the only one? |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Sorry RT. The dude looks like a woman. 
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| So-called religious leaders who ignore the Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill'" perceive no evil in the slaughterhouse business, and mislead their followers in a paranoid frenzy will have first-class reservations in hell awaitin' 'em... |
Are you saying that anyone who preaches hell will go to hell themselves? Isn't that hypocritical statement? 
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| There is no harm in considering your own personal spiritual savior to be the best and most merciful. Unfortunately, sectarian, materialistic, man-made (sometimes paranoid) interpretations of the word of God have resulted in many sects with mainly sentimental understandings of Truth claiming that only they have a monopoly on God - leading to fanaticism. |
16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Some fall aside and into fanaticism while others lead lives like Christ. ie..Mother Theresa, Apostle John, Thomas Kempis...etc. That is why Jesus said broad is the way that leads to destruction, but narrow is the way that leads to life. Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else.
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| Different religious systems were inspired by God to appeal to different types of people with different levels of understanding. |
3But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers and have introduced doctines of demons. Many religions lead people into open idolatry. Worshipping of idols other than Him. Idolatry can take shape in many forms.
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| There is also evidence that Jesus as a young man spent a lot of time in India (Aquarian Gospel of Jesus is accepted as authentic by some theologians) and that he returned there (known as Isis) after the "resurrection" and ultimately ascended from this world while situated in Kashmere. (There is still a shrine there for Isis, and I've heard that there is evidence regarding this in the archives of the Russain Orthodox Church...) |
Do you know anything of the Nicene council? To refute such heresies at their time. The church was being ravaged by many heresies and wanted to solidify their doctrine by empirical evidence. Being that the gospels could be verified by witnesses and archaelogical evidence. This is why such arguments are easily refuted, because they are hear say. (Close to heresy, don't you think?)
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| Not being able to speak is caused by demons? |
Sometimes. Not all physical ailments are caused by demons. Some have natural causes.
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| Why is there more than one divine being in the Bible? Isn't "God" supposed to be the only one? |
Depends on how you define divinity. Satan has a measure of authority, but not on the level as God. Satan has usurped man's authority, by stealing his destiny. However, Jesus crushed his kingdom and has returned authority back to man. God is omniscient and eternal much greater than satan.  |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'll just reply to a couple of your points - mainly because it's late (or early) as hell and I'm watching the Red Sox-Yankees game...
I did not state that preachers "who preach hell" will go to hell themselves.
I said that preachers who "mislead their followers" (into thinking that it is not very sinful to support slaughterhouses that unnecessarily kill and torture millions of poor animals daily) will go to hell (at least temperarily) or take birth as beef cattle - and be subjected to the hellish conditions that ignorant humans impose on harmless creatures.
I don't know much about the Nicene council (and am too tired to research it right now...) but I think that it was instigated mainly by King Constantine who made Christianity the "official religion" of the Roman empire (because his mother was into it...) but who was really a demonic individual who not only killed some of his own relatives, but also boiled vegetarian Christians alive in oil out of hatred of Christians who preached the original Christian message of compassion to animals. (Needless to say he was a big meat-eater...) There is no evidence that Jesus ever ate meat, and John the Baptist, Origen and other early Christians were vegetarians (especially everyone from the Essene tradition...)
By the way, Jesus never said that there was no reincarnation or transmigration of the soul (when asked about the prophet Isaih, he replied that he had come again as John the Baptist but was not recognized...) Nonetheless, one of those politically motivated councils nixed that doctrine - mainly out of concern that it might lessen the clergy's control over the mass of people.
Also there is a distinction between "idol worship" and devotedly worshipping authorized deity forms according to scriptural regulations. Because in this mundane world we don't have the eyes to see God, He agrees to appear in a form made of material elements and constructed according to scriptural descriptions. He does so in response to prayers offered by a pure devotee in order to accept devotional service from fallen conditioned souls. If the worship is done with material motives (or neglectfully) it becomes idol worship - God is not obliged to stay in that material form - but obviously God has the power to transform matter into spirit according to His divine will. (In response to my impure prayers, the Red Sox have built up a 6 -0 lead - but that could vanish if He so desires ...) |
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Red
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
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| Why is there more than one divine being in the Bible? Isn't "God" supposed to be the only one? |
Depends on how you define divinity. Satan has a measure of authority, but not on the level as God. Satan has usurped man's authority, by stealing his destiny. However, Jesus crushed his kingdom and has returned authority back to man. God is omniscient and eternal much greater than satan. |
But how does Jesus and satan exist in a theology that is supposed to have a single divine being?
And doesnt worshiping jesus break a commandment?
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| Being that the gospels could be verified by witnesses and archaelogical evidence |
This is a lie. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Am I preaching over everyone's head here - or what? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Where are all the big thinkers on this forum? (My last big thread on this post has taken on a life of its own - and it will not be ignored ...)  |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Come on Red, that statement doesn't cut mustard. Show me how my statement is a lie.
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| But how does Jesus and satan exist in a theology that is supposed to have a single divine being? |
The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all the same, but are three separate entities. It is like the sun, it has a mass, light and heat. Three forms of energy, but all of them are energy.
God called Adam to be the steward of the earth, but satan stole it by deceiving him. Satan wanted to ascend to level God's does by using man as his pawn.
13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:13
Satan thought he could be greater than God's by stealing man's authority. Man now worships satan through sin and this is satan's glory.
Jesus came and destroyed the works of satan and released man from his chains of slavery. Accepting Jesus into your heart, allows you access into the presence of God.
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| And doesnt worshiping jesus break a commandment? |
It doesn't because Jesus and God are one. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. God has given him all authority.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Col 1:15
This is why Hinduism and Buddhism is idolatry, because they have made graven images and worship things that are not found to glorify Jesus. So anything that the heart wants to make into a god that isn't Jesus is idolatry. For example, some Christian ministers make their ministry their god and worship it. That is idolatry. When Moses left Egypt and went into the desert. God called him AND Aaron to the mountain. What happened? Moses went up to the top of the mountain, but Aaron stayed behind at the bottom of the mountain. Moses enjoyed the freedom of being in God's glory while Aaron made a false image for the people to worship. Why? Because the people of Israel made God into something they wanted him to be.
Jesus said to the pharisees, "You worship God with your lips, but your heart is far away." He also said, 15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
Jesus can be seen and heard by all those who want to follow after him. If you are covered in sin and have a hardened heart, you cannot see or hear him. You are dead in sin and you need His grace to be set free from the burdens of sin.
| Quote: |
| I said that preachers who "mislead their followers" (into thinking that it is not very sinful to support slaughterhouses that unnecessarily kill and torture millions of poor animals daily) will go to hell (at least temperarily) or take birth as beef cattle - and be subjected to the hellish conditions that ignorant humans impose on harmless creatures. |
Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity. Yes, Christians should steward our surroundings and creatures with respect, but Christians do not worship animals. Personally, I can't stand slaughter houses, but God isn't going to send someone to hell because they run a slaughter house. They were created as food and it is ok to eat them. God values people as much more important than animals. Christians will go to hell if they do not help the poor as mentioned in Matt 25.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
| Quote: |
| By the way, Jesus never said that there was no reincarnation or transmigration of the soul (when asked about the prophet Isaih, he replied that he had come again as John the Baptist but was not recognized...) |
This is a good point RT. However, for Elijah and John the baptist, who I think you are refering to. It isn't about reincarnation, but about the spirit that rested upon each of these men. Do you know anything about the mantles that believers in Christ carry? It is about their authority in the spirit. John the Baptist picked up the mantle of Elijah and preached in the same anointing. Different than reincarnation, but nevertheless a good point.
You could also use Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration. Do you know the story? Well Moses and Elijah reappeared to Jesus. The difference is that it is the spirit of Moses and the spirit of Elijah. Their earthly ministries are finished, but can come back for the purposes of God. Satan can likewise uses the spirit in hell for his purposes. Divination and mediums are such examples.
| Quote: |
| Nonetheless, one of those politically motivated councils nixed that doctrine - mainly out of concern that it might lessen the clergy's control over the mass of people. |
You should research the Nicene creed. It wasn't instigated by Constantine, but partly because of what he was trying to introduce into the church. Mainly because of all the other "heresies that were growing in popularity. Gnosticism was becoming a main threat to the church. The church realized the need to separate heresies from truths and protect itself from Constantine. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Quote:
This is a lie.
Come on Red, that statement doesn't cut mustard. Show me how my statement is a lie.
Quote:
But how does Jesus and satan exist in a theology that is supposed to have a single divine being?
The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are all the same, but are three separate entities. It is like the sun, it has a mass, light and heat. Three forms of energy, but all of them are energy.
God called Adam to be the steward of the earth, but satan stole it by deceiving him. Satan wanted to ascend to level God's does by using man as his pawn.
13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:13
Satan thought he could be greater than God's by stealing man's authority. Man now worships satan through sin and this is satan's glory.
Jesus came and destroyed the works of satan and released man from his chains of slavery. Accepting Jesus into your heart, allows you access into the presence of God.
Quote:
And doesnt worshiping jesus break a commandment?
It doesn't because Jesus and God are one. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. God has given him all authority.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Col 1:15
This is why Hinduism and Buddhism is idolatry, because they have made graven images and worship things that are not found to glorify Jesus. So anything that the heart wants to make into a god that isn't Jesus is idolatry. For example, some Christian ministers make their ministry their god and worship it. That is idolatry. When Moses left Egypt and went into the desert. God called him AND Aaron to the mountain. What happened? Moses went up to the top of the mountain, but Aaron stayed behind at the bottom of the mountain. Moses enjoyed the freedom of being in God's glory while Aaron made a false image for the people to worship. Why? Because the people of Israel made God into something they wanted him to be.
Jesus said to the pharisees, "You worship God with your lips, but your heart is far away." He also said, 15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
Jesus can be seen and heard by all those who want to follow after him. If you are covered in sin and have a hardened heart, you cannot see or hear him. You are dead in sin and you need His grace to be set free from the burdens of sin.
Quote:
I said that preachers who "mislead their followers" (into thinking that it is not very sinful to support slaughterhouses that unnecessarily kill and torture millions of poor animals daily) will go to hell (at least temperarily) or take birth as beef cattle - and be subjected to the hellish conditions that ignorant humans impose on harmless creatures.
Maybe in your religion, but not in Christianity. Yes, Christians should steward our surroundings and creatures with respect, but Christians do not worship animals. Personally, I can't stand slaughter houses, but God isn't going to send someone to hell because they run a slaughter house. They were created as food and it is ok to eat them. God values people as much more important than animals. Christians will go to hell if they do not help the poor as mentioned in Matt 25.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Quote:
By the way, Jesus never said that there was no reincarnation or transmigration of the soul (when asked about the prophet Isaih, he replied that he had come again as John the Baptist but was not recognized...)
This is a good point RT. However, for Elijah and John the baptist, who I think you are refering to. It isn't about reincarnation, but about the spirit that rested upon each of these men. Do you know anything about the mantles that believers in Christ carry? It is about their authority in the spirit. John the Baptist picked up the mantle of Elijah and preached in the same anointing. Different than reincarnation, but nevertheless a good point.
You could also use Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration. Do you know the story? Well Moses and Elijah reappeared to Jesus. The difference is that it is the spirit of Moses and the spirit of Elijah. Their earthly ministries are finished, but can come back for the purposes of God. Satan can likewise uses the spirit in hell for his purposes. Divination and mediums are such examples.
Quote:
Nonetheless, one of those politically motivated councils nixed that doctrine - mainly out of concern that it might lessen the clergy's control over the mass of people.
You should research the Nicene creed. It wasn't instigated by Constantine, but partly because of what he was trying to introduce into the church. Mainly because of all the other "heresies that were growing in popularity. Gnosticism was becoming a main threat to the church. The church realized the need to separate heresies from truths and protect itself from Constantine.
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OMFG! You have nothing better to do??? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| (God, I think I'm hypnotized!...) Anyway, some people choose to spend their time studying religion (and or philosophy) and preaching ... while others make hundreds of faces with eyes rolling in unison - to each his own... |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You have nothing better to do??? |
Nahhhh.
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| Anyway, some people choose to spend their time studying religion (and or philosophy) and preaching ... while others make hundreds of faces with eyes rolling in unison - to each his own... |
Chicken  |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:57 am Post subject: |
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I resemble that remark!  (... sometimes arguments are useless - the art of preaching is to just do it enough - as interestingly as possible - so that they'll want to hear more next time - not that I'm such a great example of it...) |
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