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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Would You Clean? |
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| cruisemonkey wrote: |
I work at a publically-funded 'English Camp' located at public high school and am officially employed by the Superintendent of the Provincial Office of Education. Next week, Monday is a statutory holiday, plus, we will not teach any classes Tue. through Fri. The official grand opening of the camp is on Wednesday and the Director/Contractor has informed us that on Tuesday, we will come in and clean the building in preparation for the opening ceremonies. Part of me thinks - "No big deal (it's like trading a day's labour as a janitor for getting Thursday and Friday off)", but another part thinks - "No way! I'm not a janitor - this will just open up a 'slippery slope' with no end.
What sort of a stance would you take  |
I don't think there is any right or wrong answer here, but personally, I would do it on the condition that it was one time only. I'd use it as an opportunity to have a wild card in my hand the next time they asked me to do something I felt was unreasonable. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| How is the cleaning supportive of the primary reason behind the work visa? The primary reason that one was issued the work visa (E-2) is that one was a native speaker and came here to teach English. I fail to see how cleaning is supportive. Moreoever were this to happen on a regular basis and you were paid for it, would that not be considered a second job? It's not what the work visa was issued for certainly. |
(1)As long as it's at the location listed on the visa and considered supportive of the goal of teaching (which cleaning would fall under as cleaning is simply something that has to be done, though generally it's limited to light classroom cleaning though it's not a legal requirement), then it's legit. Otherwise doing pre-work, talking to students, and whatever else on the company dime could be considered unlawful which would be exceptionally unlikely.
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| Also doesn't the E-2 visa limit the number of your work hours? I could be wrong on this but that was what a poster by the name of Mankind told me. In theory then could not cleaning (daily) exceed one's work hours? |
2)There is no restriction as to the number of hours worked in place due to a work visa. There are general labor requirements that limit time to 44 hours per week and 8 hours per day before overtime pay is to be required as well as employee agreement in general cases, as well as contractual obligations, but no visa restrictions.
Not that I'm advocating what people should do. I'm just focusing on what the law does or does not require. |
1) Most certainly cleaning has to be done, but that does not mean the foreign teacher has to do it. One could easily make the arguement that cleaning is detracting from the primary goal of teaching. Let's use my example as in the above case. A teacher works split shifts from 9AM to 7 PM. Then cleans the school for another 2 hours. Then goes home and spends 1 hour phone teaching (2 on Saturdays) Then has to do prep work for tomorrow's class for another two hours on top of that. I could see how that could easily have a negative cummulative impact upon teaching. It may well be legal, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily supportive of the goal of teaching.
Keep in mind here that I was already fulfilling my contractual obligations by teaching six hours a day. And the cleaning and the phone teaching were unpaid work. So that would bring it to nine hours a day, 45 hours a week which would as you stated bring it to overtime, but we weren't paid. Not a dime except for teaching. Which is why I refused.
2. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Much appreciated. |
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Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Keep in mind here that I was already fulfilling my contractual obligations by teaching six hours a day. And the cleaning and the phone teaching were unpaid work. So that would bring it to nine hours a day, 45 hours a week which would as you stated bring it to overtime, but we weren't paid. Not a dime except for teaching. Which is why I refused. |
I'm curious as to why this fictional teacher is agreeing to unpaid phone teaching work. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Keep in mind here that I was already fulfilling my contractual obligations by teaching six hours a day. And the cleaning and the phone teaching were unpaid work. So that would bring it to nine hours a day, 45 hours a week which would as you stated bring it to overtime, but we weren't paid. Not a dime except for teaching. Which is why I refused. |
I'm curious as to why this fictional teacher is agreeing to unpaid phone teaching work. |
I'm curious as to why this sock is suddenly appearing.  
But to answer your question: This is a REAL case history (mine) At the time I was a newbie and didn't know better. We were told that the unpaid phone teaching is a part of every teacher's duties in Korea. "Oh all the teachers do this!" But in case you missed the point, the phone teaching (paid or unpaid) wasn't the point. The point was the cleaning which on top of my teaching and phone teaching exceeded normal working hours and went into overtime as Mr. Gord has already told us.
Now go back in your drawer. |
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Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Keep in mind here that I was already fulfilling my contractual obligations by teaching six hours a day. And the cleaning and the phone teaching were unpaid work. So that would bring it to nine hours a day, 45 hours a week which would as you stated bring it to overtime, but we weren't paid. Not a dime except for teaching. Which is why I refused. |
I'm curious as to why this fictional teacher is agreeing to unpaid phone teaching work. |
I'm curious to why this sock is suddenly appearing. |
"I have nothing with which to respond to what this person said, so what can I do? I know, I'll trot out the 'sock' line! Me so clevah"
Somedays I think all expats in Korea are like this, but as we well know that's not the case... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Keep in mind here that I was already fulfilling my contractual obligations by teaching six hours a day. And the cleaning and the phone teaching were unpaid work. So that would bring it to nine hours a day, 45 hours a week which would as you stated bring it to overtime, but we weren't paid. Not a dime except for teaching. Which is why I refused. |
I'm curious as to why this fictional teacher is agreeing to unpaid phone teaching work. |
I'm curious to why this sock is suddenly appearing. |
"I have nothing with which to respond to what this person said, so what can I do? I know, I'll trot out the 'sock' line! Me so clevah"
Somedays I think all expats in Korea are like this, but as we well know that's not the case... |
Love how you quote the first line of my response. As I posted already I was talking about MY personal experience. As anyone can see I refuted your claims about a fictional teacher as I clearly pointed out (on page 2) that I was talking about my personal experiences. And now having misread the thread you attempt a lame rebuttal by only quoting the first line of my post and trying to make it seem that's what I said.
As anyone can see that's not the case. Good job in making yourself look foolish by the way. |
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Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And now having misread the thread you attempt a lame rebuttal by only quoting the first line of my post and trying to make it seem that's what I said.
As anyone can see that's not the case. Good job in making yourself look foolish by the way. |
So did you or did you not say "I'm curious to why this sock is suddenly appearing", which is the first line of your post that I quoted but you now claim it's 'not the case' you said it?
I hope you have a flashlight as this hole you're digging is getting deeper and deeper  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Gunnery Sergeant Hartman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And now having misread the thread you attempt a lame rebuttal by only quoting the first line of my post and trying to make it seem that's what I said.
As anyone can see that's not the case. Good job in making yourself look foolish by the way. |
So did you or did you not say "I'm curious to why this sock is suddenly appearing", which is the first line of your post that I quoted but you now claim it's 'not the case' you said it?
I hope you have a flashlight as this hole you're digging is getting deeper and deeper |
What I said was "you attempt a lame rebuttal by ONLY quoting the first line of my post and trying to make it seem that's what I said". When the FACT was I said a whole lot more and clearly responded to your question above. Here I'll help you out. On Page 2 I outlined a situation that happened to me. On page 3 (the post you took my quote from) I said "Let's use MY* example as in the above case (the one on page 2).
So it was obvious I was talking about myself.
You then went on about some fictional teacher and when I called you on it, you simply quoted the first line of my response and tried to make it seem that was ALL I had said.
*Capitals are mine for clarity. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Wow!... this is fun (watching you guys argue). 
I have just one question though - in the context used, what exactly is a "sock"? |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| cruisemonkey wrote: |
Wow!... this is fun (watching you guys argue).
I have just one question though - in the context used, what exactly is a "sock"? |
A 'sock' is a sock-puppet - a second Dave's ESL account one can use for fun or to make it look like one has friends and supporters (or enemies if one is so bored one needs an argument with oneself).
Anyways, Wednesday my students are busy doing tests - perhaps I can ask someone whose daddy is important to get an invitation to your grand opening and see if your classroom is as spic-and-span as your kitchen? |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm sure you can rangle up an invitation through that lovely K-girl (or I could get you one from the big R). There MUST be some free kimchi and maek-jju after all the speeches! My classroom floor will be so clean we can eat and drink off of it. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| cruisemonkey wrote: |
| I'm sure you can rangle up an invitation through that lovely K-girl (or I could get you one from the big R). There MUST be some free kimchi and maek-jju after all the speeches! My classroom floor will be so clean we can eat and drink off of it. |
You know come to think of it, after the exams are finished in the morning I believe the whole staff at my school are going out for lunch and soju. Perhaps I could suggest that we eat / drink at the cowfield palace and then all drop by. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure of the exact time, but I believe the ceremony is pre-lunch, starting sometime around 10:00 - 11:00. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Well... the cleaning is done - it took less than an hour. All they wanted us to do was tidy up the staff room and each do our own classroom. Professionals are coming in to do the washrooms and all the common areas. |
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capebretoncanadian
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| screw that....the slippery slope consequences might be too dire..."Well, you did it before" |
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