| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
|
 Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
I come from a working class family, and two of my brothers and a sister all enlisted in the Marines. Conservative though the remaining sister and brother may be, they have nothing good to say about the Marines.
They enlisted because in my family university was not an option (I started at 30, after earning and saving enough money) and it was considered decent job training. They were and are patriotic people, my one brother gave his life, but they did not enlist out of patriotism.
By the way, both of my parents enlisted in the Navy in WWII. My mother died some years back, but my father is still pretty strong and healthy for 85, and he thinks this war is god awful and Bush is a very unfunny laugh.
I am quite sure that most people enlist for the same reason my sister and brothers did, and not for the reason my parents did. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| By the way, last month Maxim magazine ran a picture of a US soldier in Iraq with a caption "This is what I gotta do to pay for college?" Apparently it offended some readers who wrote in to complain. Some seem to dislike the idea that most of those who join do so for the financial rewards and not out of patriotism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Alias wrote: |
| By the way, last month Maxim magazine ran a picture of a US soldier in Iraq with a caption "This is what I gotta do to pay for college?" Apparently it offended some readers who wrote in to complain. Some seem to dislike the idea that most of those who join do so for the financial rewards and not out of patriotism. |
You seem pretty confident with your use of the word "most" here. You also seem to assign enlistees more rational motives than they, perhaps, at least as a group, deserve. Remember, we're talking about, for the most part, 18-year-olds.
I remember being interviewed by a CO upon entering basic training, and I clearly remember a great deal of people saying "I dont know" when the captain asked them why they joined...
So I'll add "I don't know" to my list of reasons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:23 am Post subject: ... |
|
|
Hmm...
Evidence?
How many join out of patriotism?
Your statistic? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I guess the alternative would be to have a mandatory period of service for EVERYONE like Israel and some other countries do (I can't seem to think of any others right now). I'm just not sure why anyone would think of joining the service and not be aware that the possibility of going to war (whether you agree with said war or not) was there. This seems pretty naive...even for an 18-year old. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Personally i think there should be mandatory service with no exceptions. Have a health issue? Get a desk job or something where physical activity isn't necessary. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Personally i think there should be mandatory service with no exceptions. Have a health issue? Get a desk job or something where physical activity isn't necessary. |
Not neccessarily military service but some sort of citizenship obligation (a la Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers). Desk job for those with physical restrictions, non-military service for those who object to the military for one reason or another. They could be police recruits, or federal workers of some sort, or take up roles that they are always looking for volunteers for- health care assistant (candy-striper), staff for homeless shelters or battered women shelters, meals on wheels cooks and deliverers, etc.
Tie the whole thing into voting and taxation (can't vote and don't receive certain tax breaks until your service is done), and give incentives to those who opt for military service- do less time, earn bigger tax breaks, etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yeah, good expansion on the idea there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Being forced to work for the government? What a grand socialist ideal! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And since the government is an equal opportunities employer, the new draft applies to women too.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alias wrote: |
| Being forced to work for the government? What a grand socialist ideal! |
I don't see too many commies running Israel and South Korea, do you? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Alias wrote:
Being forced to work for the government? What a grand socialist ideal!
I don't see too many commies running Israel and South Korea, do you?
|
No, but with the exception of a few mad dog zionist militarists and Kimchi Uber Alles ultranationalists, I doubt that too many Israelis or South Koreans view the draft as being a good thing in and of itself. Rather, they likely view it as an unfortunate by-product of their nations' geopolitical circumstances. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
Alias wrote:
Being forced to work for the government? What a grand socialist ideal!
I don't see too many commies running Israel and South Korea, do you?
|
No, but with the exception of a few mad dog zionist militarists and Kimchi Uber Alles ultranationalists, I doubt that too many Israelis or South Koreans view the draft as being a good thing in and of itself. Rather, they likely view it as an unfortunate by-product of their nations' geopolitical circumstances. |
I think the same applies to the United States.
But in the U.S., I think the same incentives, such as support for a university education, as are in place now for recruitment should be maintained. Everyone serves, everyone is eligible for an education. (That way neither is particularly "communist"- the education or the mandatory service.)
Oh, and, of course, women are to be included! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Rather, they likely view it as an unfortunate by-product of their nations' geopolitical circumstances. |
Sure it's a controversial idea. Maybe it's a terrible idea, I'm not a social engineer. But I do think it appears to have merits and ought to be examined.
And I'm thinking of my own country, Canada. It's already a welfare state, and full of superficial patriotism. The idea could have a 'you must do service outside of your province' component to it.
As for the idea that it's some form of socialism, I think you could look at it in the opposite light- what you give is what you get. Ayn Rand would have approved.
And uh, I'm just shooting the breeze, not suggesting that something like this should be implemented during a controversial time of war... then again the US govt is empowered to re-enact the draft at any time, aren't they? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
As for the idea that it's some form of socialism, I think you could look at it in the opposite light- what you give is what you get. Ayn Rand would have approved.
|
Just a minor point: Ayn Rand opposed the draft, and said that all true conservatives should do so as well. And since she opposed any form of welfare state whatsoever, she likely would have rejected the premise behind "what you give is what you get"(ie. in her view there shouldn't be anything to "get" in the first place).
I think the draft-welfare connection would be most popular with traditional conservatives, who view society as an organic entity, predicated on a reciprocal system of duties and benefits. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
