|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Qinella wrote: |
The other day, I was in the cafeteria and one of my worst students was in there. She started demanding I buy her snacks and give her money, speaking to me as though I were a child. The nearby K teachers from the upstairs academy, who know me fairly well, audibly gasped, but did not say anything to the incorrigible girl. This made me feel as though I had no respect from anyone present. I do my best to battle the image of westerners in Korea being goofy monkeys who don't deserve respect, but when even the adults don't respect me, it seems to be a fruitless endeavor.
Q. |
I don't know what your co-workers were thinking or why they didn't intervene, but maybe they didn't want to interfere or undermine your authority on the assumption that you could straighten out the little brat yourself.
When it happens to me, if I'm busy I just roll my eyes and turn away from that student, but if I have time I prompt for correct grammar, first in Korean, then in English. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I prefer they don't use banmal with me and usually they don't. One consideration, however, is that many of my Korean friends resent the obligations of formal speech and say it is 'liberating' to not have to use it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I prefer they don't use banmal with me and usually they don't. One consideration, however, is that many of my Korean friends resent the obligations of formal speech and say it is 'liberating' to not have to use it. |
I sometimes bristle if someone I don't know uses it, like a taxi driver for example, but I suppose it can also be meant as an "affectionate" gesture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Qinella wrote: |
[
Interesting parallel. Actually, the Korean teachers don't really speak to me in Korean very often because their English is far superior to my Korean. (1) I think it's more a matter of kids speaking like that to me in front of K teachers and K teachers not correcting them, thereby establishing an understood precedent that it's okay to speak like that. As you may know, K kids value a Korean opinion as the only important one, (2) and so if I tell them not to speak to me like that, but the K teachers don't reinforce it, the kids have no compulsion to agree with me. The K teachers' silent complicity overrides my demand.
The other day, I was in the cafeteria and one of my worst students was in there. (3) She started demanding I buy her snacks and give her money, speaking to me as though I were a child. The nearby K teachers from the upstairs academy, who know me fairly well, audibly gasped, but did not say anything to the incorrigible girl. This made me feel as though I had no respect from anyone present. I do my best to battle the image of westerners in Korea being goofy monkeys who don't deserve respect, but when even the adults don't respect me, it seems to be a fruitless endeavor.
Q. |
(numbers are mine).
1. Why should the K teachers correct them? Shouldn't that be your job? Cut them off at once and in your best drill 'sargent' voice tell them how to address you. Be consistent and eventually the tide should turn. If however you wrestle or joke with them, your best efforts will come to naught.
2. Then you make them address you how you want. Otherwise they will be scolded. Or you could do what I did once. There are always a few jokers who will attempt to set the class tone by calling you Teacher Urban, instead of Mr. Myth. So you simply inform the entire class that every time someone calls you Teacher Urban, that there will be an oral test for the whole class the next day. Peer pressure is a wonderful tool.
3. I would have marched her into the boss' office (you work at a hakwon, correct?) and said "Her, or me. You decide. I will be in my classroom if she wishes to apologize." I would have described the situation and left. With a boss that's even half-way reasonable it works. I know, since I have done it. It's a lot harder (especially in a small town) to get another teacher than it is to kick out one troublemaker. All the boss has to do is say "Would you like me to call your mother and tell her about the trouble you are causing or would you like to apologize?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pest1 wrote: |
In my school, I have kids that are 4-7 years old. I don't know what they do with the Korean teachers because I speak no Korean at all, but they sure are very casual with me. I didn't mind it at first when they were just joking around with me sometimes. But occationally I get into a very bad situation where they will call me BABO or some other Korean names that are bad and even come and hit me.
I don't know if the Korean teacher or their parents tell the kids they don't need to respect foreign teachers, cuz these are just language monkeys? Or is it the misconception here in Korea that in foreign countries students don't need to respect their teachers? |
What do you do in these cases?
Respect is earned, not given. If you had been allowed to hit your teachers and call them names back home, do you think you would have respected any of them? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
riley
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: where creditors can find me
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
in response to those who feel they want to have a friendly relationship with their students, let me tell you a story.
I was walking to my school with the students and I felt a boy try to dongchim me. I grabbed him and yelled at him and basically scared the hell out of him. Later, I got a nice note written to me explaining that he thought that we were friends so this was okay. What's funny is that I have always tried to keep the classroom formal. In other words, if you keep the environment too relaxed, the students will believe they can do anything. So, �ݸ� is not appropriate because it shows that the students believe that they can act differently towards you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peeping Tom
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tomato wrote: |
I'm afraid I'm in the minority in this thread.
�ݸ� and ���븻 have been a source of culture shock for me.
I would rather respect everybody and dispense with ��� and ��, vous and tu, or whatever the two forms happen to be.
It seems unfair to me that adults speak to children in �ݸ� and children speak to adults in ���븻.
I also don't like to treat white-collar workers and blue-collar workers differently.
I wish I knew some other way besides ������, ���ܸ�, and ������ to say "Hey, you."
But I try to keep in mind that culture shock can work both ways.
A Korean student on a message board asked, "����� �� �ݴ븻, ���븻�� �����?" |
| Qinella wrote: |
You also said you don't like the levels of speech being different based solely on social standing. I'm with you on that. I tend to use polite speech with my students, even the troublemakers (yes, I do speak Korean in class when it's necessary to be understood), and sometimes cringe at the way K teachers speak to the children. However, when older people use intimate speech with me due to age difference, it actually gives me a little warm feeling. It's hard to explain.
Cheers,
Q. |
While I agree that people should be viewed as equals, would you, in your native country, call your elementary school students "Mr. Smith" or "Ms. Johnson"? Using �� is similar to doing that. At the same time, most teachers I remember having still had us call them "Mr., Mrs., or Ms. so-and-so."
�� is often referred to as a respect form, but thinking of it in that way is not completely correct. It does not mean that you actually hold any respect for someone.
In an English-speaking country, even if you disliked and had no respect for another adult, you would still use "Mr." or "Ms." when speaking to them. This is because simply referring to them on a first-name basis (I mean in social contexts where this is generally not allowed) would be considered rude. Nobody interprets it as respect, rather not using the correct form would ber interpreted as rude. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj roach
Joined: 16 Mar 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:04 am Post subject: Korean students using banmal with you. Where do you stand? |
|
|
Peepingtom...........
Korea same same! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pest1
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| pest1 wrote: |
In my school, I have kids that are 4-7 years old. I don't know what they do with the Korean teachers because I speak no Korean at all, but they sure are very casual with me. I didn't mind it at first when they were just joking around with me sometimes. But occationally I get into a very bad situation where they will call me BABO or some other Korean names that are bad and even come and hit me.
I don't know if the Korean teacher or their parents tell the kids they don't need to respect foreign teachers, cuz these are just language monkeys? Or is it the misconception here in Korea that in foreign countries students don't need to respect their teachers? |
What do you do in these cases?
Respect is earned, not given. If you had been allowed to hit your teachers and call them names back home, do you think you would have respected any of them? |
I don't know. I don't having a degree in teaching. Sure back home the teachers would know what to do because they probably studied it at school, or their more experienced co-workers could have helped them out in the beginning of their careers. I don't get that kind of support here. My boss just says "control your classes" and "you are not allowed to punish them because they will complain to their parents and their parents will pull them out of the school". This is a problem with these private schools which would not be present in public schools. Plus I don't speak Korean, it is not easy to make the kids understand when I try to reason with them.
My parents would have taught me to respect teachers before I even went to school. I would not hit my teachers the same as I would not hit my parents, unless they started hitting me first. I don't need to hit my teacher and get told off before I understand I need to respect my teachers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pest1
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| pest1 wrote: |
In my school, I have kids that are 4-7 years old. I don't know what they do with the Korean teachers because I speak no Korean at all, but they sure are very casual with me. I didn't mind it at first when they were just joking around with me sometimes. But occationally I get into a very bad situation where they will call me BABO or some other Korean names that are bad and even come and hit me.
I don't know if the Korean teacher or their parents tell the kids they don't need to respect foreign teachers, cuz these are just language monkeys? Or is it the misconception here in Korea that in foreign countries students don't need to respect their teachers? |
What do you do in these cases?
Respect is earned, not given. If you had been allowed to hit your teachers and call them names back home, do you think you would have respected any of them? |
I don't know. I don't having a degree in teaching. Sure back home the teachers would know what to do because they probably studied it at school, or their more experienced co-workers could have helped them out in the beginning of their careers. I don't get that kind of support here. My boss just says "control your classes" and "you are not allowed to punish them because they will complain to their parents and their parents will pull them out of the school". This is a problem with these private schools which would not be present in public schools. Plus I don't speak Korean, it is not easy to make the kids understand when I try to reason with them.
My parents would have taught me to respect teachers before I even went to school. I would not hit my teachers the same as I would not hit my parents, unless they started hitting me first. I don't need to hit my teachers and get told off before I understand I need to respect my teachers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have heard of a superintendent who asked all his teaching candidates, "How do you win respect from your students?"
He found that most of his best candidates answered, "Respect is a two-way street." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| denverdeath wrote: |
| Yes, actually, I do usu ignore it. Sometimes, I'll do the same right back at them in Korean(sometimes in a whiny girl's voice) to show them how pathetic they look and sound. |
Haha, nice. I gotta try that.
Thanks for your opinions.
Q. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I prefer they don't use banmal with me and usually they don't. One consideration, however, is that many of my Korean friends resent the obligations of formal speech and say it is 'liberating' to not have to use it. |
Very interesting. I never thought Koreans minded using formal speech. As an outsider and student of the language, I've noticed that the more formal the ending, the longer it takes to say it. I wonder if that's intentional.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
(numbers are mine).
1. Why should the K teachers correct them? Shouldn't that be your job? Cut them off at once and in your best drill 'sargent' voice tell them how to address you. Be consistent and eventually the tide should turn. If however you wrestle or joke with them, your best efforts will come to naught.
2. Then you make them address you how you want. Otherwise they will be scolded. Or you could do what I did once. There are always a few jokers who will attempt to set the class tone by calling you Teacher Urban, instead of Mr. Myth. So you simply inform the entire class that every time someone calls you Teacher Urban, that there will be an oral test for the whole class the next day. Peer pressure is a wonderful tool.
3. I would have marched her into the boss' office (you work at a hakwon, correct?) and said "Her, or me. You decide. I will be in my classroom if she wishes to apologize." I would have described the situation and left. With a boss that's even half-way reasonable it works. I know, since I have done it. It's a lot harder (especially in a small town) to get another teacher than it is to kick out one troublemaker. All the boss has to do is say "Would you like me to call your mother and tell her about the trouble you are causing or would you like to apologize?" |
Thanks for your input.
In response:
1. I did correct her as best as I could. She's a horrible student and understands approximately 1% of what I say to her in English, and any attempt to correct her with my poor Korean in front of other students and disrespectful students would've just made me look stupid. The Korean teachers should've said something, I think. There was a time about 9 months ago when a student was speaking improperly to me and I didn't realize it, and one of the upstairs teachers I know fairly well about ripped the student a new arsehole. That established for me a precedent that Korean coworkers should help the foreign teacher in instances of Confucianist contract breaches when language may be a barrier. Perhaps that's a wrong impression I have.
3. Attempting to march this student anywhere would be entirely fruitless. One time, I asked her to move to another desk because she was talking too much with her friend. This turned into a situation where she ended up in an absurdly exaggerated tearfest wherein she finally moved, but not before kicking her chair, throwing her bookbag, and slamming her fists on the desk. My response to that particular scenario was to remain calm and continue to insist my order, but in the cafeteria, when I'm trying to eat dinner, it's not really what I'm in for. If you have advice on how to force a 6th grade girl into moving somewhere she doesn't want to go without making an incredibly ridiculous scene or physically forcing her, I'm all ears.
Calling her mother might work, but with behavior like this, I have a feeling her parents are the type that won't hear anything bad about their child. I gave up on calling parents 8 months ago for that same reason. Most parents simply won't believe it.
Cheers,
Q. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
I should point out that there was a time a few months ago when I had a particularly rude, insolent student in the teacher's room speaking banmal with me and jondaemal with the K teacher. I asked him what the deal was, and he explained that since I'm not Korean, he assumed there was no need to apply levels of formality to me.
This makes me wonder if it's a matter of disrespect, or simply that we aren't part of the "family" and therefore not applicable to special conjugations.
I'm still not sure.
Q. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
