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Remember when the insurgency was on its last legs?
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:54 am Post subject:

Quote:

Well, besides the obvious as in fight the real war on terrorism, not some foolish attack on Iraq?

I know a great way to get rid of Al Qaeda. Tell mideast nations to kill all their supporters. All the regimes stay in power over there you tell us they don't have effective security services? Now if the regimes in the mideast can crack down on Al Qaeda then why aren't they? They will if they are threatened. Iraq does provide the US with miltary bases and it does show that the US will take down regimes.

Besides

A) Saddam did support terror.
B) His regime did teach hate and incite violence which is one of the main causes of terror.
C) He was at war with the US and the US had a policy of containment (anyone out there think Saddam would have a change of heart ) - which meant US forces in Saudi Arabia. Which was the thing that got Bin Laden to start up Al Qaeda as it is known now in the first place.

Quote:

- Don't disband the Iraqi army, especially after you made back channel promises to the Iraqi brass that if they didn't fight they would be taken care of. A million troops with weapons and training and no more salary are going to be looking for a way to put food on the table.

Ok a legitimate criticism.

Quote:

- Realize every time you bomb a terrorist hold out and you accidentally kill 10 children, you make 200 allies into enemies.

That is true. on the otherhand No one in the mideast got made when Saddam gassed the Kurds, when Khomeni killled 30,000 in 1988, or when Assad destroyed the city of Hama in 1982. And Bin Laden he is a hero to many over there despite the fact that his Al Qaeda forces in Afghanistan killed muslims.

You know in the 1990s 70,000 trained in Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan. That was when the US was defending MUSLIM kurds from Saddam, MUSLIMS in Kosovo from Slobidan, and this was while the US was trying to bring Israel and the Palestinian side together. What was the problem then?

Quote:

- Realize American troops are not peace keepers or cops. Everyone hates America by default. But since Bush totally alienated most nations that traditionally send peace keepers, he pretty much screwed that option.

Ok a legitimate criticism - on the other hand many of the nations that usually send peace keepers were engaging in sanctions busting with Saddam. Wasn't the UN on Saddam's payroll?

Quote:

- Accept most Iraqis are like most Americans. They don't want people who are practically space aliens telling them how to run their nation. What would America do if they needed French troops to kick out a dictator? Americans would say "thanks, France, but leave now.... we'll do the rest." If France decided it was going to re-write America's constitution in its own image, you think Americans would sit idly by? They'd soon be cutting heads off of European contractors people.

that maybe true, on the other hand the Shias hate the Sunnis more than they hate the Americans. And the Kurds in Iraq support the US.

Quote:

- Treat all prisoners under the rules of the Geneva convention. Yeah, even if they're vile killers, you're America. You're supposed to play by the rules. If you're not, then no one else will.

Quote:

- Accept you've got 180 different religious factions, all armed to the teeth, and all happy to kill each other.

Quote:

- Bush needs to stop reminding the American public he got rid of Saddam Hussein. Great. That was three years ago. Does the average American even care who won the super bowl from three years ago? Why does Bush keep thinking Americans will go "oh yeah, well, at least we did that."

Okay, though regime change was the policy of the Clinton administration too.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:21 am Post subject:

Porter_Goss wrote:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee,

If you like Michael Doran check this out;

Council on Foreign Relations.

This article seemingly helps to promote your hypothesis, but I would like you to be thinking of the factors that lead to the formation of terrorist groups while reading it.

Also, my original comments were directed at your belief that the war on terror would be easily won. Not your words, but that is what I surmised from your post. Would you like to respond to that?

*EDIT* Formatting error.

thanks for the link.

but I too am wondering about what factors lead to the formation of terrorist groups

Especially

that Al-Qaeda camps 'trained 70,000'

Quote:

Thousands are said to have joined al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan
Some 70,000 people received weapons training and religious instruction in al-Qaeda camps, German police say

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4146969.stm

Notice this was when the US was defending muslims in Northern Iraq and in Serbia and whle the US was trying to bring about peace in between Israel and the Palestinian side.

This was also when Clinton apologized to Iran for what the US did 50 years ago.

Notice that no one in the mideast got made when Assad destroyed Hama or when Khomeni killed or when Bin Laden killed or When Saddam gassed the Kurds. Wonder why that is.

Here is left winger Robert Fisk. He is an apologist for Iran and Hezzbollah but here he is giving the way it works in the mideast.

Quote:

As usual in the Arab world, everyone knew what was happening and no one said a thing. The British and American pilots flying the pointless southern "no-fly" zone �� allegedly to protect Iraq's minorities �� could clearly see the receding waters of the Marsh. The Arab regimes remained silent. Neither Mubarak nor Arafat nor Assad nor Fahd uttered the mildest word of criticism, any more than they did when the Kurds were gassed.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0519-02.htm

Now as I know Al Qaeda fights for the Caliphate.

This just in todays Washington Post;

Quote:

With groundbreaking elections taking place in Iraq, Egypt, the Palestinian territories and even Saudi Arabia, Zawahiri and his ideological allies fear that popular sentiment in the Middle East could be turning against their goal of establishing a united caliphate to rule over the world's entire Muslim population, many al-Qaeda experts contend.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12334508/

What does this show you about the causes of terror?

Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:52 am Post subject:

Octavius Hite wrote:

So in the end there really is no good course for the US to go, Bin Ladin has won the war, the US can do nothing without coming out as the loser and all it took was a few hundred thousand dollars and 18 madmen. This will be studied in history books with great interest I suspect.

Al-Zawahiri tries to keep al-Qaeda in his grip
Bin Laden's chief deputy speaks out of fear of losing influence, analysts say

Updated: 10:30 p.m. ET April 15, 2006

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12334508/

Porter_Goss

Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Location: The Wrong Side of Right

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:34 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee? It's not a debate unless you counter at some point. You read the article?

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:20 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

and I did not know that the US gave approval to Japan but what does that have to do with anything?

Then why the hell are you talking about it?

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

I mean in Korea it was either a divided country or rule by Kim Ill Sung. Was there another choice?

If the US is responsible for dividing Korea then it was only cause the only alternative was rule by Kim Il Sung.

WRONG!!! That came AFTER. FIRST, as Japan surrendered, Russia moved into Korea. The US, not wanting to allow Russia complete dominion over the Asian mainland, told them to stop, or there might be difficulties. [sic]

It was after this that the parties lined up their puppets. A little reading goes a long way.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Ok a legitimate criticism - on the other hand many of the nations that usually send peace keepers were engaging in sanctions busting with Saddam. Wasn't the UN on Saddam's payroll?

Cough. Ha. Cough. What nations, now? You mean Australia? America's remaining partner in the Coalition of the Vanishing?

Of course, American contractors are just shining examples of corporate governance in Iraq:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060418/ts_nm/iraq_crime_plea_dc_1

Doesn't it strike you that every time a IED goes off, America dusts off another Saddam tactic? At least with Saddam doing it to his own people Americans could take the moral high road.

Is there any nation on earth where the average joe in the street would agree to this statement:

"America is about fair play. America fights wars with honor."

Bush has done your nation great harm. But my country right or wrong, right?

Wangja

Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject:

Quote:

"America is about fair play. America fights wars with hono(u)r."

A naif I might be, but that's what I always believed.

I sincerely hope I can come to believe it again.

Americans, keep that beacon lit!

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject:

Wangja wrote:

Quote:

"America is about fair play. America fights wars with hono(u)r."

A naif I might be, but that's what I always believed.

I sincerely hope I can come to believe it again.

Americans, keep that beacon lit!

Absolutely. I remember once in my home town of Windsor meeting this American guy. He had a beard. Looked like he was one step away from quitting his job at Control Data and joining the Sea Shepherds. He had this kind of misty "ah, Canada does everything right" look on his face. He said something like "I'm kind of down on America." And I was like "you know the world is better off with an America than without it. Yeah, sometimes presidents do evil stuff but America sets the standard for international fair play."

My point about America is 1945 America had troops in every nation on earth that mattered. It was the only nuclear power. It could have tightened its grip. But, unlike the soviets, America gave the world back to itself, along with an ass load of money.

That's the America I know and love. The America where German troops in WWII would surrender to American troops and only American troops because they heard from their fathers in WWI how well the Americans treated them. Think of how many American lives were saved because so many German troops gave up instead of fighting to the death thinking death was preferable to being put into orange jumpsuits, forced to commit homo erotic acts, and tortured to death...

Think about that a moment. One generation's American soldiers' sense of fair play saved the lives of the next generation of American soldiers. Americans in WWI and WWII didn't go "well, we're up against a ruthless enemy and they'll do worse to us..."

(The German prisoners were treated so well that they were frequently treated better than the Black Americans working on and around the prison camps. The Black Americans actually went on strike because of this.)

Last edited by mindmetoo on Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total

Nowhere Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2004

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: ...

Hear hear!

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:49 am Post subject:

mindmetoo wrote:

Wangja wrote:

Quote:

"America is about fair play. America fights wars with hono(u)r."

A naif I might be, but that's what I always believed.

I sincerely hope I can come to believe it again.

Americans, keep that beacon lit!

My point about America is 1945 America had troops in every nation on earth that mattered. It was the only nuclear power. It could have tightened its grip. But, unlike the soviets, America gave the world back to itself, along with an ass load of money.

Absolutely. As a kid of 12 or so this was apparent to me. I have pointed out to many a person over the years that, as far as I know, the US is the only nation/empire? in history to essentially have the power to take dominion over the entire known world and not do so. Regardless of what people complained about, or how bad things got - how naive I was to think Iran-Contra was the Devil's own playground!! - I could always point to that particular episode in history and to the general trend in US history and have faith... and be proud.

Some, such as gopher, try to paint anyone not down with their agenda as some sort of nut, idiot or anti-American. This could not be further from the truth. America was born in protest, Tea Parties, bullets and blood. It was NOT born in quiet discourse and a friendly handshake between G. Washington and the King with the King looking sheepishly embarrassed at his thoughtlessness. Regime change in the US means getting loud, getting angry, getting moving and telling it like it is, and then some.

There was an America to be proud of. I do not know if it will return. Empires/civilizations/societies go in cycles. It seems, along with science and knowledge, that the cycles get faster and faster, shorter and shorter. We may have just witnessed the last of the great "empires" before it all falls apart - as it always has and always will - and it only lasted some 75 years. Compare that to any of the other great nations/empires...

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