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casey's moon
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: Daejeon
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 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. The first page of this thread almost convinced me that this board has improved and that intelligent discussion is possible.
Francis-Pax and Captainconjuntion -- thank you for showing me the error of my thinking. |
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Francis-Pax
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| casey's moon wrote: |
Wow. The first page of this thread almost convinced me that this board has improved and that intelligent discussion is possible.
Francis-Pax and Captainconjuntion -- thank you for showing me the error of my thinking. |
My post is on the second page, so I assume that you think that my comments are not intelligent. Yet, I present arguments that are reasonable. |
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casey's moon
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Francis-Pax wrote: |
| casey's moon wrote: |
Wow. The first page of this thread almost convinced me that this board has improved and that intelligent discussion is possible.
Francis-Pax and Captainconjuntion -- thank you for showing me the error of my thinking. |
My post is on the second page, so I assume that you think that my comments are not intelligent. Yet, I present arguments that are reasonable. |
Sure okay. I just don't want to discuss every issue from a religious perspective.
But I miswrote and I apologise. It has nothing to do with your intelligence, which is likely well above average. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
| Francis-Pax wrote: |
| Perhaps some things that point us in the right direction to happy marriage (in all of its forms) is to come to the realization that it is about sharing, giving, receiving, and sacrifice. To love in this way will surely increase the chances of success. |
If your marriage has gotten to the point where you consider doing something for your spouse a 'sacrifice', then doing so will only make you more miserable (and, I contend, if one person is unhappy in a marriage, it cannot be called a successful one).
Doing something for another will only lead to your happiness when you want to do it, and if you want to do it because their happiness is tied to yours, then it is not a sacrifice. |
I don't know if we are working with the same definition of "love" or "sacrifice" but I was married for four years to a man who lived by the theory you've described, it's a very conditional and fragile sort of love. I tried very very hard to stay with him, but frequently considered throwing one of us into the path of an oncoming bus.
At first, he was brimming with good feelings about me and our relationship, so he did good things. He expressed affection, lived up to responsibilities and made a good effort. As you'd expect, life wasn't always peaches and cream, and we learned that we were different. He learned that sometimes I felt upset and didn't like him all that much, though overall I loved him and continued to show him that. I tried to do the right thing even if I didn't feel like it, which I'd define as a "sacrifice." He couldn't bring himself to be upset with me at all, but when he saw this difference between us, his "good feelings" were threatened. Consequently, his behaviour reflected this, and things between us went into a decline. I couldn't inspire enough to do the things that needed doing, and he didn't feel like doing them, so they didn't get done. He didn't feel like coming home, so he didn't. He didn't feel like picking up after himself, so he didn't. He didn't feel like buying a wedding or anniversary gift, so he didn't. The marriage died long before it was legally over. It was a wretched way to live.
If he'd been mature enough to make some blatantly necessary sacrifices, my feelings for him probably would have improved drastically, thereby making it easier for him to feel good and do the things that would have saved the marriage. Refusal to make sacrifices locked us into a deadly cycle.
When I forgave him, that represented a sacrifice to me, but it's one that I made for the good of the marriage. It hurt to pardon him, to give him another chance, knowing he probably wouldn't change. I didn't do it for my own happiness or for his-- I did it to give our love a chance.
I didn't stay-- I don't consider marriage to be one looooong sacrifice (I was giving up my financial security, my hope for children and a future, my mental health, my career goals, not to mention emotional needs to stay with him) but I think it requires us to do things we don't always enjoy. It's an investment, and if one has the maturity to continue, I believe it yields rich rewards. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: |
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The poor wife of the guest house I'm staying in practically lives in her kitchen. The men sit around being served by her and drinking soju all day long. occasionally they get too drunk and have a go at her, whereupon she has to shout back at them. Sometimes her husband yells orders at her from his comfy repose in the bedroom.
still, i think the social pressure to marry someone who is also of the master race, ensures that most korean women overlook the behaviour of Korean men. being married to a foreigner is still worse than being married to a pig, apparently. |
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Francis-Pax
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| cdninkorea wrote: |
| Francis-Pax wrote: |
| Perhaps some things that point us in the right direction to happy marriage (in all of its forms) is to come to the realization that it is about sharing, giving, receiving, and sacrifice. To love in this way will surely increase the chances of success. |
If your marriage has gotten to the point where you consider doing something for your spouse a 'sacrifice', then doing so will only make you more miserable (and, I contend, if one person is unhappy in a marriage, it cannot be called a successful one).
Doing something for another will only lead to your happiness when you want to do it, and if you want to do it because their happiness is tied to yours, then it is not a sacrifice. |
I don't know if we are working with the same definition of "love" or "sacrifice" but I was married for four years to a man who lived by the theory you've described, it's a very conditional and fragile sort of love. I tried very very hard to stay with him, but frequently considered throwing one of us into the path of an oncoming bus.
At first, he was brimming with good feelings about me and our relationship, so he did good things. He expressed affection, lived up to responsibilities and made a good effort. As you'd expect, life wasn't always peaches and cream, and we learned that we were different. He learned that sometimes I felt upset and didn't like him all that much, though overall I loved him and continued to show him that. I tried to do the right thing even if I didn't feel like it, which I'd define as a "sacrifice." He couldn't bring himself to be upset with me at all, but when he saw this difference between us, his "good feelings" were threatened. Consequently, his behaviour reflected this, and things between us went into a decline. I couldn't inspire enough to do the things that needed doing, and he didn't feel like doing them, so they didn't get done. He didn't feel like coming home, so he didn't. He didn't feel like picking up after himself, so he didn't. He didn't feel like buying a wedding or anniversary gift, so he didn't. The marriage died long before it was legally over. It was a wretched way to live.
If he'd been mature enough to make some blatantly necessary sacrifices, my feelings for him probably would have improved drastically, thereby making it easier for him to feel good and do the things that would have saved the marriage. Refusal to make sacrifices locked us into a deadly cycle.
When I forgave him, that represented a sacrifice to me, but it's one that I made for the good of the marriage. It hurt to pardon him, to give him another chance, knowing he probably wouldn't change. I didn't do it for my own happiness or for his-- I did it to give our love a chance.
I didn't stay-- I don't consider marriage to be one looooong sacrifice (I was giving up my financial security, my hope for children and a future, my mental health, my career goals, not to mention emotional needs to stay with him) but I think it requires us to do things we don't always enjoy. It's an investment, and if one has the maturity to continue, I believe it yields rich rewards. |
My sympathy to you. I think we are on the same wave length.
I hope to God that I am not in a relationship with somebody that will only do things that they should do only when THEY want to do it. Doesn't that sound like an immature approach to a serious relationship? |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| being married to a foreigner is still worse than being married to a pig |
That doesn't say much for your future prospects, unfortunately--poor girl's gonna get two for the price of one! |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Corporal wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| being married to a foreigner is still worse than being married to a pig |
That doesn't say much for your future prospects, unfortunately--poor girl's gonna get two for the price of one! |
I've always been good value. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
People love saying that, and it may seem that way, but this is only because Western (mostly American) culture has been exported and become mainstream all over the world.
In other words: the only reason it seems like there is no American culture is because it's become so hegemonic.
My theory is that this is a reflection of its superiority (go ahead, flame me).
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Two things here, american culture is not dominant becuase it is superior. It is dominant because america is economically and militarily superior. That doesn't make the culture superior. There was a time when Ghengis Khan and his lot were superior, but that's not a vote for thier culture either.
Second, western culture is so much bigger and deeper than american culture. And a large part of this so called "american" culture stems from England. Democracy and freedom are not american ideas, though you'd be forgiven for thinking that they are now days. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Every culture has it's high points and decline. A culture is in crisis when the mores of the culture become so weak that a moral equilibrium can no longer be maintained. The hiearchy of control breaks down due to lack of respect for authority. The once strong military erodes from the inside due to lack of discipline and renders the nation(s) vulnerable to defeat from a more disciplined and determined enemy. I think thats where Western culture is at this time. Our culture is in decline and the breakdown of the traditional family is one piece of evidence that this is happening. I believe that in America many things equate to the high divorce rate not the least of which is the "feminization" of the American female and the feminization of the American male. I think there is a lot of role confusion in America right now. Women can and do compete with men on every level in the corporate wold, but many studies have shown that these women can be much less happy than their male peers with respect to their lifestyles and percieved success. |
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