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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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 Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
On the other hand, for the president to take it upon himself to forego the system of warrants is a gross abuse of our government system.
The excuse that it's "because of war" neglects the fact that Congress has NOT declared war on anybody.
To assume you can ignore protocol because we're at war ignores the very obvious fact that we're NOT AT WAR.
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NOT AT WAR - what would you call the "WAR ON TERROR?" A campain slogan? Why are US troops STILL doing COMBAT missions in AFGANISTAN?
The US IS in a declared war against Al Qaida. This is NOT a police action but a congressional declared war and they invaded AFGANISTAN on that basis.
AND what makes you think that you have the full protection of your civil liberties during wartime? Never in the history of mankind.
ANY American who thinks that it is Life As Usual is in denial about the reality of the US position in the world today.
You are NOT in the land of the brave and home of the free... you are in a country who is at war and under siege and not well liked in the world today. FORTRESS NORTH AMERICA is becoming a reality bit by bit.
-Look at flight restrictions going to the states.
-Look at border restrictions for entry to the states. Those are not policies to simply control immigration.
-Instituting (by the US government on US citizens) passport requirements for travel to Canada or Mexico instead of the current system.
Time to wake up and smell the coffee... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
It is rather creepy that KSM has just dissapeared off the face of the planet. Apparently the man isn't in gitmo.
I know I should be outraged that the gov't can do that to someone, no matter how evil and barbaric that person is, but I'm not. Just not feeling any sympathy towards Khalid Sheikh Mohammed right now.
Question is: what should a gov't do when it captures someone like him? |
What the govt did was the right move, even if it was not righteous.
The United States does not exist in a vacuum and cannot ignore the unpleasant nature of the world in which it exists. |
I thought that's what being an American was all about (and I mean that in a good way).
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=5001771915 |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Nice disclaimer. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Nice disclaimer.
You do recognize, however, that we are no longer in the eighteenth century, and that world affairs are dynamic and change from century to century -- not to mention within the centuries, even within the decades, as well?
I guess I am asking whether you can see that contexts change, as, indeed, the world and the United States have changed much since the 1770s.
In any case, I am not really surprised that you would attempt to use the U.S. "revolution" (really, it was just an independence war) and its meaning to Americans against the U.S. with respect to a rabid terrorist who would never have been negotiated with, and who would never have moderated his behavior either.
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The change in context of course is that back then US soldiers had been pretty hard done by the British during the war and wanted to make sure that wouldn't happen again, but I would hope that the standards made then would make themselves into the fabric of society and become a permanent fixture.
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| Speaking for myself, I really do not care what they did with him. |
Who is 'they'? No, I don't trust 'them' either. That guy from the Homeland Security agency for example was arrested for going on MySpace (I think that's there it was) and trying to pick up a 14-year old girl. No, I don't trust anyone with too much authority, no matter who they appear to be or how bad their enemy is supposed to be. I'm not of the opinion that protocol can be thrown out the window when the enemy has reached a certain point of badness.
There's also the problem of always taking the biggest, baddest case and making it the standard for others who are rarely just as big and as bad. It's the same thing as how Hitler always gets brought up on discussion boards to make a point.
I would also like to see your reasoning on how agreement with American standards on treating prisoners and rule of law makes me against the US.
The more context changes the more it stays the same; replace British with American and we're now in the 21st century:
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| It was British desperation in fighting a difficult and expensive war on a number of fronts that determined the harshness... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
It is rather creepy that KSM has just dissapeared off the face of the planet. Apparently the man isn't in gitmo.
I know I should be outraged that the gov't can do that to someone, no matter how evil and barbaric that person is, but I'm not. Just not feeling any sympathy towards Khalid Sheikh Mohammed right now.
Question is: what should a gov't do when it captures someone like him? |
Probably something analogous to those guys in the movie 28 Days Later where they captured that one zombie and tied it up to be used to find out as much as possible about the others. Of course, you want to both make sure it doesn't get away and also that it has no contact with the outside world unless it's required by law. Not sure exactly how to make use of something like that but anything that makes it as valuable a catch as possible, both for PR and for information to prevent further attacks. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
... also check out this brief historical overview of this kind of intelligence gathering...
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| A report that telecom firms may have given the National Security Agency access to millions of phone records might be much ado about old news. Phone companies have had a close relationship for decades with the NSA and law-enforcement agencies. |
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5420343
Aid, Bamford, the History Channel, are good sources as well. Good link. |
Thanks ...
Bamford seems to be quite trusted, well informed & generally thorough. IN fact have one of his more recent books at home.
This business, however, of the Watchers spying on their own civilian populations being " ... much ado about old news" is rather misleading.
While some have been aware of the breadth & magnitude, it's only recently that the issue has really become a mainstream, "ok" to bandy about around the water-cooler & corporate media area of discussion.
For years, the "truth" has at best existed merely as an "OPEN" secret.
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Tue May 23, 2006 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: ... |
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Goph,
Re: Philosophy/Logic
If you state that there are grounds for censure, then what are they?
And, if we're venturing into philosophical logic, realize that your suspicions about someone's sincerity are a non-argument.
The same goes for statements about how long a certain practice has been in existence. That doesn't make it right.
And I'll acknowledge that government snooping WITH A WARRANT has been around for a long time.
That really has no bearing on warrantless snooping.
And I do understand that my garbage/internet posts are in the public domain by virtue of the laws we have in place.
This is a case of the president ignoring the warrant process and assuming powers he can't just assume to have.
And it's disingenuous of him to assume such powers. If he were genuinely concerned about the Constitutionality of his actions, he could have formally inquired about such powers (and I'm sure he could have done so in secrecy for national security).
This same concept applies to issues of torture and secret prisons.
It is perfectly fair to question such American uses of un-American activities.
They are, after all, inconsistent with promoting democracy.
The practices of the rest of the world don't affect their status as un-American.
Saying that the world is imperfect doesn't make them acceptable. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Back to the database ....
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
The govt has taken steps to collect questionable data on Americans.
This is questionable. It demands an explanation. But it is not necessarily something to start a revolution over until you can establish exactly what the govt was planning to do or indeed did with said data, showing, for example, that it was specifically aiming to subvert the constitutional order or something equally egregious. |
In fact, a more accurate statement would be that the government has taken questionable steps to collect data on Americans.
The issue at hand is the legality of ignoring the protocol of using warrants.
What they're doing with the information is a whole other ballgame.
Revolution is your word, not mine.
Do you care to comment? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Mithridates wrote: |
Quote:
Speaking for myself, I really do not care what they did with him.
Who is 'they'? No, I don't trust 'them' either. That guy from the Homeland Security agency for example was arrested for going on MySpace (I think that's there it was) and trying to pick up a 14-year old girl. No, I don't trust anyone with too much authority, no matter who they appear to be or how bad their enemy is supposed to be. I'm not of the opinion that protocol can be thrown out the window when the enemy has reached a certain point of badness. |
I agree. I mean, the administration has been overturning anti-torture policies, and running secret prisons. The actual collection of phone numbers is not as disturbing as the lies, 'were only collecting data on foreign calls, not domestic ones,' when that was not the case. You don't have to appeal to the whacko pedophile to have justification for massive suspicion.
KSM is not supposed to be the incident that is shocking. One would wonder how he could be protected by the laws anyway were they upheld. The shocking incidents are the innocents picked up on suspicion, and those who die needlessly, not because they were interrogated properly, but merely because they were tortured. There is a huge difference. |
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