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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| It was posed as a question and if it is unanswerable, it only serves to confirm my long-held suspicion that the anti-Iraq war activists went all out bashing Blair without at least giving him the benefit of the doubt. |
So, you admit to framing the debate in such a way as to get the pre-determined answer you wanted?
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| And since Steve's "question" was worded with the implication that Blair, a popular leader, entered into an unpopular war, thus the war is justified. |
This syllogism is about as solid as paper-mache.  |
You're the one using Limbaugh Logic, chum. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: ... |
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| It was posed as a question and if it is unanswerable, it only serves to confirm my long-held suspicion that the anti-Iraq war activists went all out bashing Blair without at least giving him the benefit of the doubt. |
Are you sure you didn't buy all those degrees while you were drunk and on vacation in Bangkok? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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McGarrett again
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So how do you explain the huge rift in the Labour Party over the issue of going to war, much less the resignations and calls for Blair's ouster?
As for your poli sci spiel, of course British foreign policy is the result of a continuum of practice as some level. So what? |
A rift but the pro-war faction won out in the long run, which would suggest that the anti forces, who were more likely old Labour, had been marginalised. Let's not forget that despite the rift that Blair managed to win a third election in 2005 with a 66 seat majority.
I know it was a partial digression, but what of the issue of Thatcher's legacy to Blair? Still disputing it? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| ...Not applauding one for following the other into a mistake. |
Nowhere Man: who ever said anything at all about applauding anyone on this issue?
One can indeed oppose and lament the Iraqi War while at the same time appreciate that the U.S.-British special relationship remains alive and well.
How about a little dose of Hoot? Might be useful for a guy with no foreign affairs or military experience other than armchair-generalship behind him...
| Hoot wrote: |
| Y'know what I think? Don't really matter what I think. Once that first bullet goes past your head, politics and all that shit just goes right out the window. |
Right or wrong, sometimes it just works out that your friends are in a shooting war. What do you do then?
Ever hear of Texcoco, Nowhere Man? One of the original members in the Aztec Triple Alliance.
You might have heard that, although nominally allies, the Aztecs and the Texcocoans experienced turbulence in their time. By the time Cortez and his men arrived, uniting many locals against the Aztecs, the Texcocoans showed that they were prepared to sit back and watch, quite smugly, too, as the Aztecs suffered. Finally, in the throes of defeat, what remained of the Aztec govt, and it was not much at all, approached Texcoco again for aid. This time the Texcocoans accepted, provided the Aztec govt capitulate its position and let them rule. The Texcocoans felt they would be much better than the Aztecs and that, moreover, it was rightfully theirs.
But by this time Cortez had literally razed the Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan, to the ground. The survivors were eating wood, dirt, and if they were lucky: rats. I kid you not -- at least extant accounts kid you not.
In any case, what do you think happened to the Texcocoans then?
One moral to this story might be this: if people are shooting, crashing hijacked airlines into buildings, beheading people, apparently developing nuclear weapons while openly discussing another country's annihilation, etc., disagreements and resentments notwithstanding, I suggest you back your friends, at least until the shooting stops and the dust settles. After you win, then settle your political affairs and differences however you like. First, though, secure your position.
Could it possibly be that Blair might have been thinking, at least partly, along similar lines? |
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regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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"Blair was put up to this role by the Kennedy clan as a means of taking attention off the JFK conspiracy. But then I'm sure you ascertained that long ago"
I am glad you said that. I will now turn this into a Kennedy thread. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| So you're applauding Britain for joining the US in a war you didn't support? |
That is right. Especially as this contrasts with those other "allies" who would sneer, jeer, and generally kick us while we are down -- all the while calling it "friendly criticism" and then taking offense when Washington fails to single them out for gratitude as W. Bush did Blair in 9/11's immediate aftermath.
Also, you evince a deeply cynical take on the U.S.-British relationship. That is your prerogative. Do not present that as my view, however. You do not speak for me on this -- or much else for that matter. |
Per usual, the rational above amounts to little more than, "My country, wrong or right" re-done as, "My friends, wrong or right." It carries no weight.
As for stevie, he just likes to hear himself talk, which makes him boring as hell. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Nowhere Man: who ever said anything at all about applauding anyone on this issue?
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| I am, however, glad they did. |
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Nowhere Man wrote:
So you're applauding Britain for joining the US in a war you didn't support?
That is right. |
I don't know where I got that idea from.
And your cute little first people story carries little weight. As you probably know, there are just as many cases in history where joining an ally in battle was disastrous.
For instance, there once was a country named Australia. It decided to go help its buddy fight another ill-conceived war in a wee hamlet of a country called Vietnam... |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Nowhere Man:
Are you sure you didn't buy all those degrees while you were drunk and on vacation in Bangkok?
Of course not, I got them from an airport vending machine.
Nowhere man, please listen, you don't know what your missin', nowhere man, the world is at your command. Well, it might be if you could buy a vowel and get a clue.
twg:
So, you admit to framing the debate in such a way as to get the pre-determined answer you wanted?
No, Mr. Cynic, I am really eager to hear a cogent counterargument but I know it won't come from you.
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| You're the one using Limbaugh Logic |
Come again? How's that? Do show me the error of my ways.
jaganath69:
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| Let's not forget that despite the rift that Blair managed to win a third election in 2005 with a 66 seat majority. |
Which only goes to show that even the supposedly principled Left of British politics isn't above pragmatism. They knew Blair was their best shot. And by the way, I predict his successor will be a real let-down.
It's easy to gang up on world leaders like Bush and Blair when a war turns south but not so easy to support them when the going gets tough. The KGB also had the same intelligence as the CIA and MI5 as far as Iraqi capabilities, and they had a better relationship with Saddam.
ddeubel:
As for ulterior motives, I believe the chicanery of the UN oil-for-food program demonstrated that the no-sayers in France and Russia were the ones who profited most from continued sanctions on Iraq.
EFLtrainer:
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| As for stevie, he just likes to hear himself talk, which makes him boring as hell. |
What an erudite contribution to the discussion! But you get a pass because the girl in your avatar is hot.
ALL:
I'm genuinely interested in a viable alternative explanation for Blair's decision to go to war. Until I receive one, I'm inclined to agree with Gopher that at least part of his decision was shaped by the historical Anglo-American alliance. And despite different domestic agendas, Bush and Blair have demonstrated the same dogged temperament when confronted with bullies like Saddam and that nutbag in Iran. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: ... |
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| Well, it might be if you could buy a vowel and get a clue. |
Good idea because I still don't really know what this thread is about. Is the special relationship news to you? Why didn't you think of that before you made this thread, Professor? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Nowhere Man: who ever said anything at all about applauding anyone on this issue?
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| I am, however, glad they did. |
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Nowhere Man wrote:
So you're applauding Britain for joining the US in a war you didn't support?
That is right. |
I don't know where I got that idea from. |
Ah. You baited me, put words into my mouth, got the response you were looking for on record, and now you cite it as "Exhibit A." Well done.
I do not mean to applaud anyone's decision to enter this war, which I have always disagreed with. I am, however, glad the U.S.-British relationship remains alive and well.
That makes it -- what...? -- three times that I have attempted to state this in the face of your knee-jerk sarcasm-laced hostility to whatever I might say?
Suffice it to say, there are more alternatives than your W. Bush-like either/or framework presents. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: ... |
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OK. So you're not glad Britain entered the war?
Is that your final answer? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| doesn't look like we ever got that final answer. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| I don't know where I got that idea from... |
Just to remind you on this point: you know very well where you got that idea from, Nowhere Man. It was your idea and your word from start to finish, remember?
Another reminder that you are not here to exchange views but rather to play your baiting games. Very well.
Oh yeah: I reviewed the thread. My answer is already there. (And have we not been in this exact same position multiple times here? You continue following me from one thread to another, looking to pick apart anything I might say with your "questions?" Do you not know me well enough now to know that I will not play the suspect to your prosecuting atty?) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Nowhere Man: who ever said anything at all about applauding anyone on this issue?
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| I am, however, glad they did. |
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Nowhere Man wrote:
So you're applauding Britain for joining the US in a war you didn't support?
That is right. |
I don't know where I got that idea from. |
Ah. You baited me, put words into my mouth, got the response you were looking for on record, and now you cite it as "Exhibit A." Well done.
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Do you actually l think you are worth that much effort? Hell of an ego, and so little deserved. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: ... |
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Um...
Wait.
So, Bucheon Bum says there's not a clear answer. Then, you're response is to attack me?
Well, Mr. Preacher of civility and dialogue, let me borrow a few of your recent words:
Relax. I can hear you breathing through your nose.
BB made a statement. You're free to respond.
Or, you don't want to respond.
Is that your final answer?
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