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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| 'Bad Bar Warning -- Pusan' or some such, wouldnt that have been more informative & considerate? Substantiated warnings have an important place on this board. |
I agree.. you can still edit it the title - I do agree the title isn't specific to the content here.
Last edited by Tiger Beer on Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Great Wall of Whiner
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| What they are saying is "Korean men can hang out in front of the bar and address women customers but foreign men cannot". How can they say that is not racist? |
mongrel
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| great wall of whiner, you're so right. the rule that made me *beep* my ears up too, was the addressing korean women issue. it's different if they clearly want you to go away, and you persist, but otherwise what's the harm in it? it's so transparent. sometimes korean male insecurity makes me laugh. |
It's not racist. It's a cultural thing. In my experience, Korean men almost never walk up to a woman without an introduction and begin a conversation, and most foreigners who've been here less than 2 years - which is most foreigners, of course - simply don't have the cultural savvy to distinguish and read the signs from a Korean woman regarding whether she clearly wants you to go away.
If this describes you, think about it a little bit before you get hot over it.
And, mongrel, most Korean guys I have met are anything but insecure - they do, however, lack the arrogance of someone who thinks every cute Korean girl in a group of friends at a bar is just dying for YOU to talk to her ... gimme a break.
I appreciate the comments from others on this thread - I've also been turned away at Gold Bar and imagined it was my round eyes that was doing it ... went to Yellow last Saturday, very good and bodes well for the partythis weekend. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
In my experience, Korean men almost never walk up to a woman without an introduction and begin a conversation. |
Umm, Bobster, how much experience would you have with this? 
Everyone's experience is different, but when I'd go out to a bar with a female friend or two, just hanging out, minding our own business, it was a very rare night that we didn't get approached by at least one Korean man. Admittedly, this was in a smaller city and it wasn't a regular foreign hangout, but it got so bad that the bar staff gave us lessons on how to handle these guys. The lessons were basically the kind of Korean words that my students would never tell me, and how to behave in a way that wouldn't encourage them. ( Doing the whiny, "Oppa-ah!" thing to another guy seems to drive them away  ) |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| the Bobster wrote: |
| It's not racist. It's a cultural thing. In my experience, Korean men almost never walk up to a woman without an introduction and begin a conversation, |
Yes this is the same in a night club too, there they just lift up the little light on their table and the waiters just drag a woman over and give them the "proper introduction". They force conversation on the girls and if they don't like the situation, they get up and leave, easy enough. I don't think that it is entirely based on cultural motives - I have seen my fair share of both aggressive Korean and Foriegn guys.
It could be that the foriegn patrons that they are used to in the bar, as it has been alluded to, have just been too aggressive and/or obnoxious for the comfort of Korean patrons. They are also very persistent, which could cause problems.
I don't know because we will never know the true unbiased story of what really happened. It seems that there is both a little bit of prejudice and misunderstanding of cultures involved.
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Just as an aside, I was in London in 1992 on a rugby tour, and a bunch of us went to the Hippodrome, we were refused entry because the bouncers said that there were already some Canadians inside and they did not want anymore in there. This kind of thing happens all over. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| In my experience, Korean men almost never walk up to a woman without an introduction and begin a conversation. |
Umm, Bobster, how much experience would you have with this? |
Sorry, Peppermint, probably should have specified "Korean" women.
Your experiences are valid, but without knowing for sure I'd have to guess you are a western woman over here - am I going to shatter your illusions if I say that Korean men, especially in a bar, don't treat Western women they would Korean women in the same context? Hope not.
Okay, yeah, and that might be racist, too, let's argue about that for a while, why not? But I don't think so - western guys don't treat Korean women like they do the girl next door back home, either ... or if they did they wouldn't get very far, I think.
Yeah, it's a cultural thing, and one thing I've noticed about my Korean friends who make an effort to befriend foreigners is that at times they seem almost relieved to be free for a while from what they sometimes feel is an overly-strict set of cultural imperatives here. Noticed it in California with my Japanese friends there and I've seen it almost to the same extent here in Korea. In short, Koreans often behave toward us in ways they would do toward each other.
As foreigners, we don't have a particular niche where they can place us and thus know how to behave towards us. Again, call it racism, or zenophobia, or what have you - terms like that don't mean a whole lot in this millieu; rather they are concepts we bring with us, and Koreans have a bunch of other concepts that don't have any clear meaning in our western minds also.
Anyway, excuse the lecture, Peppermint, but just because Korean men will do that to you doesn't mean that they would do the same with a couple of Korean women - and it doesn't mean that they want Western guys behaving that way towards Korean women.
| Quote: |
| Yes this is the same in a night club too, there they just lift up the little light on their table and the waiters just drag a woman over and give them the "proper introduction". They force conversation on the girls and if they don't like the situation, they get up and leave, easy enough. I don't think that it is entirely based on cultural motives |
Yeah, Nate, I think you're talking about booking clubs, right? My impression was that the bar they're talking about here in Busan is not one of those, just a standard sort of evening place to have mixed drinks and beer ... context is important in this part of the world, don't you agree?
And, yeah, that context of booking clubs does reflect what I'm talking about. A waiter bringing a girl over to the table, well, it IS still third-party-introduction, isn't it? It also reflects a very male-dominated society, but that's another thread, another topic ... |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm an American and I can't complain about discrimination in Korea because there are bars in up north in places like Uijongbu and TongDuChon that only allow US military members to enter and those bars are NOT off-limits to military members. That is a disgrace.
www.itaewonrecord.com/itaewoner.htm |
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mongrel
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:14 pm Post subject: everyone read this |
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| bobster, i didn't mean to imply that every, let alone any, korean woman would be waiting for me to talk to them. i'm a firm believer in the novelty factor, rather than the "you handsome man" one. i guess i would be culturally insensitive. i don't approach korean women myself, but see no problem in some other foreigner doing it if they want to, only if the interest is returned though. i guess i just believe in personal freedom. but, having said that, the foreign 'casanova' could be said to be affecting the personal freedom of his chosen victim. i think you took me the wrong way, bottom line for me is you should be free to talk to anyone, and they are free to tell you to go away. the insecure korean man thing, it's just a gut feeling i get. everyone's got insecurities though. |
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mongrel
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:43 pm Post subject: everyone please read |
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| bobster, i just had another think about what you said about cultural insensitivties. i'm not trying to be cheeky, but do you really think that's why, in general, some korean men disapprove of this? i honestly haven't really thought of it this way. i just thought they were angry that a foreigner was daring to speak to a local woman. you could very well be right of course. what about the situation when a korean man approaches a blond foreign woman and asks if she's russian? ( a veiled enquiry about her profession?) Or, why is it that they don't seem to treat foreign women by the same standards as their own? or more to the point, would i be fair in saying that korean men assume that foreign women are easy compared to korean women? again i'm not trying to argue with you, i would be interested to know for sure if the reason why some korean men don't approve of foreign men talking to korean women is because of culture. |
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Blue Flower
Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Location: The realisation that I only have to endure two more weeks in this filthy, perverted, nasty place!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| William Beckerson wrote: |
| I go into bars all over Seoul, lift my sword into the air and yell, "BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL!" After some special effects, I jiggle my pecs and walk out. |
I'm looking forward to seeing you in action on Saturday night. I may even drag out my fur loin cloth for this special occasion. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Blue flower, if you look anything like Xena warrior princess, i'll be all over you. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Blue Flower wrote: |
| William Beckerson wrote: |
| I go into bars all over Seoul, lift my sword into the air and yell, "BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL!" After some special effects, I jiggle my pecs and walk out. |
I'm looking forward to seeing you in action on Saturday night. I may even drag out my fur loin cloth for this special occasion. |
Now I'm expecting it on Saturday! Nice call Blue Flower! |
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Blue Flower
Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Location: The realisation that I only have to endure two more weeks in this filthy, perverted, nasty place!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Blue flower, if you look anything like Xena warrior princess, i'll be all over you. |
Is that a promise?  |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Blue flower: Rest assured that I closely resemble Conan the Barbarian. I'll also be concealing my large, hidden weapon and am quite adept at those primeval, prehistoric courtship rituals |
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dominic
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:51 am Post subject: offically changing the title for rapier since ilikehimsomuch |
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| Rapier I dont even know u and i think ur the biggest idiot i know. Do you any friends? I guess not since you're on this board 24-7. WHo cares what the title was, do u want the 20 secs of your life back? Im sorry i told anyway about this story im not 7 years old i was only giving a warning but u guys can go there and get treated badly i dont care |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Bobster made references to Korean men not approaching Korean women.
RUBBISH YOU FOOL! You obviously don't get out much. Even though I was with my girlfriend she was approached by some Korean men a few times. My korean male friends always scout around the bars for loose women. I concede that without a drink Korean men are more inhibited. After a couple of beers they are on heat. I have seen Korean men with more sex drive than a rotweiler dog. You obviously hang out with geeks. I agree with a lot of what Dominic has said. What is wrong with it? He has warned us all of a D.U.M.P. More Westerners should be prepared to speak out about such matters. Now I know to avoid the place when I next take a trip to Busan. To many Westerners are prepared to seek some bizzare satisfaction by peddling the usual "it's their culture," bull. Shame on you idiots. In the UK there would be an uproar if clubs in my city reacted in the same way. It was probably the bartenders nightmare to see Korean women "stolen," by a waygook so he got his panties hunched up over it. Sad coward, he deserved a lot more than a push as well, but of course he sad lackeys would probably join in. Good for you Dominic. Thanks for the post. |
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