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Muslim swimwear?? The BURQUINI!!
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
Don't be naive. The world over, radical muslims are forcing via social stigma, muslim women to wear the bedsheets. Do some bloody research on the topic. In some parts of Europe (Holland, Sweden for example) even non-muslim women who live in muslim dominated areas are wearing it to keep the "men" from harassing them.


True in some, and for the sake of argument let's say, "a lot", of cases.

But not in this one.

That's the difference between moderate muslims, and radical muslims. A world of difference.

A distinction that seems over the heads of Jinju and BJWD.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

happeningthang wrote:
BJWD wrote:
The world over, radical muslims are forcing via social stigma, muslim women to wear the bedsheets.


That's the difference between moderate muslims, and radical muslims. A world of difference.
A distinction that seems over the heads of Jinju and BJWD.



You might wanna read what you quoted of me? I said "radical muslims" are forcing "muslims". I already made that distinction.

Jinju, well, whatever.
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
happeningthang wrote:
BJWD wrote:
The world over, radical muslims are forcing via social stigma, muslim women to wear the bedsheets.


That's the difference between moderate muslims, and radical muslims. A world of difference.
A distinction that seems over the heads of Jinju and BJWD.



You might wanna read what you quoted of me? I said "radical muslims" are forcing "muslims". I already made that distinction.

Jinju, well, whatever.


True enough, you did say that...but only in response to someone saying that the woman in the OP article was wearing a burqua voluntarily.

So what exactly is your point?
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding what? The burquinini? Don't care? Indifferent? 80 years ago most Western women would have not worn skimpy swimsuits on the beach.

Women are always victems of patriarchal societies. This is one example of it. The problem isn't what they wear, but why they are told to wear it.

In other words, the problem isn't muslims, but islam.
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
Regarding what? The burquinini? Don't care? Indifferent? 80 years ago most Western women would have not worn skimpy swimsuits on the beach.

Women are always victems of patriarchal societies. This is one example of it. The problem isn't what they wear, but why they are told to wear it.

In other words, the problem isn't muslims, but islam
.


The woman wears what she wears voluntarily!!! The problem is you seem to have a blind spot on that particular point.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you know what a social construction is? We are who we were created to be by those around us with influence on us. Very few people are able to totally reject their conditioning. I am an atheist, classical liberal with an authority problem because my dad is. I value the lives of others because my society does. I am a product of my family, my country, my culture and all the ideologies contained in such. I also believe that my way of life, and my way of understanding the world are superior to all others (as does everybody else).

We need not be concerned with what some musilm woman wears. It is her choice, and she is free to believe that she has the freedom to choose it. This woman can choose what she wants. But her point of reference for the choice, islam, is a barbaric and backwards philosophical pimple that needs to be popped. I'm not going to say that because she chose it, the basis of her choice is acceptable. I won't tell her what to wear, but I will tell her that her reasons for wearing it are laughably absurd.

We (meaning, those of us who value human life and believe the sexes to be of equal value) must criticize those constructions that slap the face of human dignity.

The problem isn't that I have a blind spot. The problem is that you are just not there enough to grasp the larger issues.
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huffdaddy



Joined: 25 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
Regarding what? The burquinini? Don't care? Indifferent? 80 years ago most Western women would have not worn skimpy swimsuits on the beach.


Muslims integrating with Western culture isn't good news to you? Isn't that progress? Isn't that what you wanted? Or is it only the macabre incidents of violence and conflict which interest you?
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gang ah jee



Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
Do you know what a social construction is? We are who we were created to be by those around us with influence on us. Very few people are able to totally reject their conditioning. I am an atheist, classical liberal with an authority problem because my dad is. I value the lives of others because my society does. I am a product of my family, my country, my culture and all the ideologies contained in such. I also believe that my way of life, and my way of understanding the world are superior to all others (as does everybody else).

We need not be concerned with what some musilm woman wears. It is her choice, and she is free to believe that she has the freedom to choose it. This woman can choose what she wants. But her point of reference for the choice, islam, is a barbaric and backwards philosophical pimple that needs to be popped. I'm not going to say that because she chose it, the basis of her choice is acceptable. I won't tell her what to wear, but I will tell her that her reasons for wearing it are laughably absurd.

We (meaning, those of us who value human life and believe the sexes to be of equal value) must criticize those constructions that slap the face of human dignity.

The problem isn't that I have a blind spot. The problem is that you are just not there enough to grasp the larger issues.

You know, I think the number one best thing that we - and I mean WE as the West, as the Enlightenment - have going for us is our ability to accept these people into our societies as they are, and as they wish to be. These Sydney muslims can't change the way they were raised as children, any more than you can change the fundamental values that were taught to you by your own father, BJWD. What they can do is benefit from tolerance and teach the same to their children - who will no doubt see the 'burquini' as something for old ladies to wear. Thinking of and talking about muslims in the West as the Enemy is likely to achieve the opposite effect. however.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a nice try to cherry-pick and criticize me due to the chip on your shoulder to me, but once again highlights your total inability to build a sense of proportion. You do not have a sense of proportion.

The actions of this one woman are completely inconsequential to the larger, historical struggle between islam and it's neighbors. If I posted how an imam told muslims to out-breed Australians (as one did, today) you would reply that that is just one man, and he doesn't represent the entire community, those an imam is by definition a community leader.

Well, this woman is just one woman, not a community leader, and she doesn't represent the entire community. In fact, she is so far gone from mainstream muslim culture the world over, that pointing to this as evidence of large-scale assimilation is bizarre. Add to this that she is still wearing the symbol of patriarchal muslim oppression, and I'm none to impressed at all.

So, yeah, I guess that she doesn't want to kill her kuffar peers and is willing to go to the beach in a plastic burqa and actually try to save them is great news. Or, maybe the real newsstory is that this is a story at all. That this tiny act of "assimilation" is so unusual that it had to printed all over the world.

Though, what if a man needed mouth-to-mouth?
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gang ah jee wrote:
BJWD wrote:
Do you know what a social construction is? We are who we were created to be by those around us with influence on us. Very few people are able to totally reject their conditioning. I am an atheist, classical liberal with an authority problem because my dad is. I value the lives of others because my society does. I am a product of my family, my country, my culture and all the ideologies contained in such. I also believe that my way of life, and my way of understanding the world are superior to all others (as does everybody else).

We need not be concerned with what some musilm woman wears. It is her choice, and she is free to believe that she has the freedom to choose it. This woman can choose what she wants. But her point of reference for the choice, islam, is a barbaric and backwards philosophical pimple that needs to be popped. I'm not going to say that because she chose it, the basis of her choice is acceptable. I won't tell her what to wear, but I will tell her that her reasons for wearing it are laughably absurd.

We (meaning, those of us who value human life and believe the sexes to be of equal value) must criticize those constructions that slap the face of human dignity.

The problem isn't that I have a blind spot. The problem is that you are just not there enough to grasp the larger issues.

You know, I think the number one best thing that we - and I mean WE as the West, as the Enlightenment - have going for us is our ability to accept these people into our societies as they are, and as they wish to be. These Sydney muslims can't change the way they were raised as children, any more than you can change the fundamental values that were taught to you by your own father, BJWD. What they can do is benefit from tolerance and teach the same to their children - who will no doubt see the 'burquini' as something for old ladies to wear. Thinking of and talking about muslims in the West as the Enemy is likely to achieve the opposite effect. however.


In other words, if we tolerate their intolerance they will become less intolerant?

Camon. Get real.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by thepeel on Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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gang ah jee



Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
In other words, if we tolerate their intolerance they will become less intolerant?

No, that's not it. We lead by example.
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:

We need not be concerned with what some musilm woman wears. It is her choice, and she is free to believe that she has the freedom to choose it. This woman can choose what she wants. But her point of reference for the choice, islam, is a barbaric and backwards philosophical pimple that needs to be popped. I'm not going to say that because she chose it, the basis of her choice is acceptable. I won't tell her what to wear, but I will tell her that her reasons for wearing it are laughably absurd.

We (meaning, those of us who value human life and believe the sexes to be of equal value) must criticize those constructions that slap the face of human dignity.

The problem isn't that I have a blind spot. The problem is that you are just not there enough to grasp the larger issues.


Seems to me it all comes back to a burqua being representative of Islam and that just equals bad to you. For someone who wants to portray themselves as grasping larger issues you seem to have a very simplistic black hat, white hat view of the world.

The article pretty clearly makes the point that not all people who wear burquas are incapable of assimilating in Western societies. That radical muslims "grab all the headlines" (I think was the quote), and, it was implied, inform some peoples opinions of Muslims to the exclusion of more moderate, secular, and westernised Muslims.


Last edited by happeningthang on Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES. We don't tolerate that which is intolerable. That, is leading by example. Saying that some things are wrong always. Being little multicult wimps isn't leading by example. It is an invitation to impose yourself on us.
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
YES. We don't tolerate that which is intolerable. That, is leading by example. Saying that some things are wrong always. Being little multicult wimps isn't leading by example. It is an invitation to impose yourself on us.


Yes, burqua=muslim=BAD?
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