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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well in regards to you first point, the example I provided was far from the word of a "khomeni follower".
If you read carefully you would see that it was in fact provided by Brian Ross and Christopher Isham of ABC news.
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Sure okay, i have no problem with him I respect him.
Let me clarify what I meant:
but the CIA says they are using the group to go after AQ not Iran. Now I don't know if it is true. But I am not going to belive it w/o quesiton that the US is using the group to commit terror acts in Iran just cause Iran says so.
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As for the direct question you posed to me, to be honest I don't really care who started it. The argument could go back decades and both sides are at fault. |
It does matter Iran has been going after the US since 1979 killing Americans for long time. In Lebanon and Khobar.
and Iran is seeking to conquer or at least dominate the mideast. Something for the US to be concerned about something Iran doesn't have right to do.
They also do offensive stuff like nd kill translators of the Santanic Versus in Japan and blow up Jewish community centers in Argentina
Plus they teach and incite violence which is one the main causes of terror
If the US began this in 2005 but Iran had been going after the US and killiing Americans for a long long time.
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But let me just pose you this question; what if Iran was directly responsible for the overthrow of the regime in Mexico? And what if the Iranians stationed 150 thousand plus military and civilian personal in Mexico? |
Well the US would like it but Saddam was an enemy of Iran. So was the Taliban. Also Saddam was an enemy of the US.
Here is another factor the US overthrew Saddam not just cause Saddam was an enemy of the US , not only cause Saddam wouldn't give up his war but also cause Iran wouldn't give up theirs.
Khaddafy of Libya gave up his war more or less and now the US isn't bothering him .
The US is in Iraq because the Bathists Khomenists and the Al Qaedists wouldn't give up their war.
As I said before Khomenism is a sinister cause.
Here is an example of what it is about:
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According to the WEA, "[t]he Mandaeans have survived 1400 years of Islamic persecution," and that in Islamic communities, they are "regarded as infidels (kaffir) and unclean (najes), hence they can have great difficulty obtaining employment and education" (WEA 24 July 2003). In respect of sexual assault,
Islamic judges in Iran have set the precedent that the rape of a Mandaean woman can be regarded as an act of 'purification,' and as such, violators receive impunity. In Iran this defence has been used to acquit men of rapes on Mandaean girls as young as 8 years old (ibid.). |
http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/print?tbl=RSDCOI&id=41501c2123
Here is what needs to be said about the MEK
During the second gulf war the US bombed the MEK
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The Mujahedeen Khalq seeks to topple Iran's ultra-religious government. It has fighters in neighboring Iraq that formerly received support from the government of Saddam Hussein. During the Iraq war, the U.S. military briefly bombed MEK camps until the group capitulated and agreed to disarm. |
The US disarmed the MEK of their heavy weapons
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/mek.htm
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On 10 May 2003 V Corps accepted the voluntary consolidation of the Mujahedin-E-Khalq�s forces, and subsequent control over those forces. This process is expected to take several days to complete. Previously, V Corps was monitoring a cease-fire brokered between the MEK and Special Forces elements. The MEK forces had been abiding by the terms of this agreement and are cooperating with Coalition soldiers.
By mid-May 2003 Coalition forces had consolidated 2,139 tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery pieces, air defense artillery pieces and miscellaneous vehicles formerly in the possession of the Mujahedin-E Khalq (MEK) forces. The 4th Infantry Division also reported they have destroyed most of the MEK munitions and caches. The voluntary, peaceful resolution of this process by the MEK and the Coalition significantly contributed to the Coalition�s mission to establish a safe and secure environment for the people of Iraq. The 4,000 MEK members in the Camp Ashraf former Mujahedeen base were consolidated, detained, disarmed and were screened for any past terrorist acts. |
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During the 2003 Iraq war, U.S. forces cracked down on MEK�s bases in Iraq, and in June 2003 French authorities raided an MEK compound outside Paris and arrested 160 people, including Maryam Rajavi. |
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The United States, which lists National Council of Resistance of Iran as a terrorist organization, closed the NCRI's Washington office in 2003. |
The US says they are shutting down the MEK
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I just want to be very clear that the U.S. remains committed to preventing the MEK, which is now contained in Iraq, from engaging in terrorist activities, including activities against Iran, and its reconstitution inside Iraq as a terrorist organization," Rice said.
The State Department officially designated the MEK as a terrorist group in 1997. The MEK has been campaigning for several decades to overthrow the Iranian government, and since 1987 has been operating out of Iraq with the backing of Saddam Hussein.
But since the start of war in Iraq, the MEK has been the subject of a fierce tug-of-war within the administration. While the State Department pressed for MEK members to be treated as terrorists, some Pentagon officials appeared to view them as a possible vanguard against the Iranian government. |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A33885-2003Nov12?language=printer
Now has Iran ever called off one of their terror groups? |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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First of all let me preface all that I'm about to say with the fact that I have a great deal of distane for the regime in Iran. I wish the we could live in a pluralistic world that respects human rights and has an overall liberal outlook in regards to how people live their lives.
I support the individual, and as long as they don't hurt anybody else, then they're free to believe what they want and are cool in my books.
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Sure okay, i have no problem with him I respect him.
Let me clarify what I meant:
but the CIA says they are using the group to go after AQ not Iran. Now I don't know if it is true. But I am not going to belive it w/o quesiton that the US is using the group to commit terror acts in Iran just cause Iran says so. |
Well the Americans are obviously using the group to further their own interests. Otherwise they wouldn't be outright supporting an organization which they also lable a terrorist one.
And it doesn't take an investigative journalist to see that a group which has been involved in previous violent activities inside Iran is also doing the same thing now.
Because the American are supporting the MEK, I think we can all safely assume that the US military is in turn culpable in any actions the MEK takes inside Iran. Therfore, if the MEK is involved in violent activities that Americans are in essence supporting terrorism. It's simple as that.
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As for the direct question you posed to me, to be honest I don't really care who started it. The argument could go back decades and both sides are at fault. |
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| It does matter Iran has been going after the US since 1979 killing Americans for long time. In Lebanon and Khobar. |
Again, the conflict between the Iranians and the Americans goes back decades. Who overthrew the elected regime of Iran back in the late 1940s?
The United States.
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| and Iran is seeking to conquer or at least dominate the mideast. Something for the US to be concerned about something Iran doesn't have right to do. |
And what exactly are the Americans doing in the mideast right now?
Attempting to bring liberty and freedom to the masses? Well US interests in Saudi Arabia and Egypt would prove otherwise.
It's more like they want to maintain their hegemony in a region of the world which through geography holds a resource that is the lifeblood of the developed world.
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They also do offensive stuff like nd kill translators of the Santanic Versus in Japan and blow up Jewish community centers in Argentina
Plus they teach and incite violence which is one the main causes of terror |
I never supported Iran and I am fully aware of their actions.
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| If the US began this in 2005 but Iran had been going after the US and killiing Americans for a long long time. |
You don't think that in the buildup to the invasion of Iraq they were also planning for a direct conflict with Iran?
And again American CIA activities inside Iran have been going on since the 1940s. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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I just want to be very clear that the U.S. remains committed to preventing the MEK, which is now contained in Iraq, from engaging in terrorist activities, including activities against Iran, and its reconstitution inside Iraq as a terrorist organization," Rice said.
The State Department officially designated the MEK as a terrorist group in 1997. The MEK has been campaigning for several decades to overthrow the Iranian government, and since 1987 has been operating out of Iraq with the backing of Saddam Hussein.
But since the start of war in Iraq, the MEK has been the subject of a fierce tug-of-war within the administration. While the State Department pressed for MEK members to be treated as terrorists, some Pentagon officials appeared to view them as a possible vanguard against the Iranian government. |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A33885-2003Nov12?language=printer
Well it looks like the Pentagon has disarmed the group of heavy artilery. Which make sense because you don't want this same group to turn on you at a later date.
But why is the MEK still able to exist inside Iraq. Obviously they still serve a function for the Pentagon. Once a terrorist, always a terrorist, eh!
I guess why this explains the infighting between the Pentagon and the State Department.
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| Now has Iran ever called off one of their terror groups? |
Of course they have. Missions get planed, get started, and sometimes get called off all the time. It doesn't mean that they will continue their actions at a later date.
Finally, let's remember just because the American military says something, it doesn't always mean they are doing it.
They are also fight a propoganda war (there is actually an office inside the Pentagon which deals with this) and half truths and outright lies are in order to maintain the sense of morality in their mission back home.
Right now it doesn't serve US interests to outright admit they are quite active inside Iran from the Iraqi and Afghani side. They would loose a lot of credibility back home and globally if they admitted this.
But it doesn't mean they aren't and to think otherwise is ignorant. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Well it looks like the Pentagon has disarmed the group of heavy artilery. Which make sense because you don't want this same group to turn on you at a later date. |
Okay.
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| But why is the MEK still able to exist inside Iraq. Obviously they still serve a function for the Pentagon. Once a terrorist, always a terrorist, eh! |
cause Iran has been at the US well before the US invaded Iraq. Which is one of the reasons the US invaded Iraq.
Anyway I will agree with you if you in turn concede that the US has been behaving far better with the MEK than Iran has been with Hizzbllah and others.
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| I guess why this explains the infighting between the Pentagon and the State Department. |
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| Now has Iran ever called off one of their terror groups? |
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| Of course they have. Missions get planed, get started, and sometimes get called off all the time. It doesn't mean that they will continue their actions at a later date. |
Hizzbollah is a very powerful group does Iran ever moderate their behavior?
You know what I talking about.
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| Finally, let's remember just because the American military says something, it doesn't always mean they are doing it. |
perhaps however but the US is far more truthful and decent than the Iranian goverment.
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| They are also fight a propoganda war (there is actually an office inside the Pentagon which deals with this) and half truths and outright lies are in order to maintain the sense of morality in their mission back home. |
sure but better than what Iran does.
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Right now it doesn't serve US interests to outright admit they are quite active inside Iran from the Iraqi and Afghani side. They would loose a lot of credibility back home and globally if they admitted this.
But it doesn't mean they aren't and to think otherwise is ignorant. |
I will concede all your points if you concede that the actions of Iran are worse than those of the US.
What I think the US is doing in with the Balluci tribesman in South East Iran is this:
Here take this money - this is only to go after Al Qaeda not Iran (wink ) (wink) don't use it to do bad things in Iran (wink ) (wink) (wink) .
The US probably knows that the group will devote only 10% of its actvities against Al Qaeda and 90% of its actvites going after Iran . However the US never directed them to do any activites in Iran - not they need to.
Nevertheless Iran has been at the US well before the US invaded Iraq. So Iran started it.
And more importantly the US would not be doing it if Iran gave up its war.
Iran ought to just give up their war and then there would be no real problem with the US.
This is stll relevant : Khomenism is a sinister cause. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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I will absolutely concede that Iran is the worse of the two. No problems there.
And America within it's own borders is a country I respect. I cannot say the same for Iran.
While I do disagree with some of the United States internal policies (i.e. the War on Drugs and the strangle hold big buisness has on te Congress and Senate), overall I would say America is a decent nation that for the most part protect the rights of its citizens.
However, America's foreign policy and its activities abroad (especially in regards to the CIA and the Pentagon) are a completely different story. They have a lot of blood on their hands and the American public needs to understand why those actions have fostered so much ill will against the United States.
And I still don't understand how President Bush is pushing the democracy angle in Iraq, while at the same time essentially maintaining dictatorships in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
It's hypocracy and everybody can see it.
As a result you loose most of your moral clout.
You can't say something and do something else without people questioning you.
Last edited by endo on Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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I think a lot of people need to remember that a lot of the anti-Americanism is this world is based on the United States foreign policies and not it's domestic ones.
Sure they're are likely some Mullah's condeming America for its sinful domestic policies, but for most part what feeds and markets terrorist organizations is America's hypocritical foreign policy.
Now I'm all for a global conquest based on liberty and protection of individual rights. But if we're going to go this way, then we need to follow it true to its path.
If we go off couse and make friends with the enemies of our ideology, then we've (a) lost the moral highground, and (b) essentially forget what we stand for.
America has done the best job of any Empire through human history in promoting liberty and freedom. But they have also made a lot of mistakes along the way and people need to start seeing this and recognize how these failures are comming back to bite them in the azz. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
You guys are unbelievable!
I produced two clear cut examples and you make futile attempts to discredit them.
There right there guys! The first terrorist organization is currently listed as such by the American government. Yet they are essentially protecting them and allowing them to exist because they ultimately serve US interests.
As a result we see a clear cut example that the Americans position on terrorist organizations is scewed and consequently they loose a lot of credibility in my book in their War on Terror.
But I understand why the Americans are protecting this group because they in turn provide a lot of valuable intelligence in regards to what's going on inside Iran. |
It is true that they are listed as a terrorist organization by the Americans
However the Americans do not speak for the world. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Since the European Court of Justice cleared them, one could argue just as well that they are not terrorists.
Also keep in mind that laws and listings are not always up to date. There are still laws in many American states that are laws on the books but are not followed as they are a hundred or more years out of date. Simply because these guys were put on some terror list does not follow that they currently SHOULD BE now. But trying to get legislation removing them from the list through a hostile Congress is probably a pretty low priority of the Administration right now.
Last edited by The_Conservative on Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
Which brings me to my second point.
If the Americans are clearly willing to protect a listed terrorist organization in order to gain intelligence on Iran, then it doesn't take a leap of faith to believe that the Americans are also sending in spies and saboteurs into Iran in order to further strengthen their intelligence on a regime they are in effect fighting a proxy war on.
Com on guys! If you were CIA wouldn't you be trying to do the same thing.
And for those of you who said thaat they trust what the CIA spokesperson said, then I want to bring you to an ice cold realm known as hell with flying pigs.
Please........you clearly don't have any sense of history and how the sinister world of intelligence operates. |
And you do? Pleased to meet you 00(8?) 
My point was not that the CIA should be unilaterally believed, but the information claiming that they were paying this people is a "he said, she said" kind of deal and therefore needs greater verification. Just because they are the CIA doesn't automatically mean that they are lying. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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It is true that they are listed as a terrorist organization by the Americans
However the Americans do not speak for the world. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Since the European Court of Justice cleared them, one could argue just as well that they are not terrorists. |
I was actually responding to this post by Stevemcgarrett who said....
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| Specifically delineate where and how the U.S. is abetting terrorists in the world today, otherwise STFU. |
The man was demanding proof and I provided and in turn made him look like a fool. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| endo wrote: |
Which brings me to my second point.
If the Americans are clearly willing to protect a listed terrorist organization in order to gain intelligence on Iran, then it doesn't take a leap of faith to believe that the Americans are also sending in spies and saboteurs into Iran in order to further strengthen their intelligence on a regime they are in effect fighting a proxy war on.
Com on guys! If you were CIA wouldn't you be trying to do the same thing.
And for those of you who said thaat they trust what the CIA spokesperson said, then I want to bring you to an ice cold realm known as hell with flying pigs.
Please........you clearly don't have any sense of history and how the sinister world of intelligence operates. |
And you do? Pleased to meet you 00(8?)
My point was not that the CIA should be unilaterally believed, but the information claiming that they were paying this people is a "he said, she said" kind of deal and therefore needs greater verification. Just because they are the CIA doesn't automatically mean that they are lying. |
Well the article I posted was published by ABC news and written by an American. That's about as credible a source as couch potato intelligence analysists like ourselves are going to get.
But I've had the priveledge of sitting down and having a conversation with people in the intelligence field (once while in University and another time on base in Korea) and one thing I gained was the understanding that what these people say in public and what they say in private are often two completely different things.
The masses are for the most part uninformed. They're not necessarily stupid, it's just that most don't have the time or the curiosity to keep up to date on current events, and also lack the historical perspective to formulate an intelligent opinion about a subject.
The propaganda machine knows this quite well and sends out messages which rely on the basic human emotions of fear and idealism to promote their viewpoint. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| However, America's foreign policy and its activities abroad (especially in regards to the CIA and the Pentagon) are a completely different story. They have a lot of blood on their hands and the American public needs to understand why those actions have fostered so much ill will against the United States. |
I understand and you have a point. Nevertheless the US has had some very cruel and sinster enemies. The US did a lot of bad things during the cold war but at least in princple the US was correct.
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| And I still don't understand how President Bush is pushing the democracy angle in Iraq, while at the same time essentially maintaining dictatorships in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. |
Well the US first feels that the mideast as it was was a threat to the US so the US had to start somewhere.
The mideast has some of the worst goverments anywhere among them Egypt is no worse and probably slightly better. Mubarak is a *beep* foot liberal compared to Saddam Hussen.
Some in the Saudi Royal family are pro US. Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil.
Moreover in the mideast there isn't much of a liberal democratic alternatve to many of the dictators.
Would the muslim brotherhood be any nicer than Mubarak?
Would Al Qaeda be any nicer that the royal family?
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It's hypocracy and everybody can see it.
As a result you loose most of your moral clout.
You can't say something and do something else without people questioning you. |
you have a point but again the enemies of the US mean business and the US doesn't always have good option for confronting them.
Letting them do as they want is not a good option either and the UN is selective and corrupt so the US can't put its faith in it either.
It is a tough world. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:32 am Post subject: |
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endo:
Ironic that you are constantly harping on my use of uppercase in my titles while continually posting back to back (4 of the last 5 posts).
Nothing self-indulgent about that, eh? 
But if it makes you feel any better, I'd be very disappointed if the CIA did not have proxies and spies operating in Iran. The more, the better. Anything to stop Ahmadine-jihad-aslamabad and his mullah puppet masters. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
endo:
Ironic that you are constantly harping on my use of uppercase in my titles while continually posting back to back (4 of the last 5 posts).
Nothing self-indulgent about that, eh? |
Difference is I'm posting in a thread that is basicallly limited to The_Conservative, Joo Rip, and myself. You're also here but you've had nothing intelligent to say and when you tried you looked like an idiot, so you're not really included.
Anyways, again, I'm posting in a thread while you start thread on a daily basis. And for some reason you feel the need to have every single title in caps.
Other posters do that on occasion and that's cool because it's on occasion. You on the other hand do it for every single thread you start and it's incredibly annoying. Perhap I'm sometimes self-indulgent (I'll own up to that), but I'm nowhere close to your level.
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| But if it makes you feel any better, I'd be very disappointed if the CIA did not have proxies and spies operating in Iran. The more, the better. Anything to stop Ahmadine-jihad-aslamabad and his mullah puppet masters. |
What the f#%?
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| Specifically delineate where and how the U.S. is abetting terrorists in the world today, otherwise STFU. |
Changing your tune again hey buddie! First you support the Europeans and now you support spies (aka sabotours, aka terrorists), while at the same time basically stating that America would never do so.
Go back to the kiddie board and come back when you're prepared to offer me something with substance.
dude, I'm totally trolling in you right now. don't take anything personal, it's all in good fun. peace you wacky conservative you! |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Endo is essentially right.
America's support of MEK is hypocritical. It also hurts us, as MEK targets the very same liberal and open Iranian population we purportedly wish to woo.
His remarks about the fight between the State Department and the Pentagon are revealing. If I may go further than him, Condi has been fighting with Bush over the detainment of the IRCG officers in Iraq. State knew the principle of reciprocity in this kind of Cold War, and Condi is an old Russian expert so she knows even better. The worst part about that detainment is that those officers are almost certainly being tortured. When Iran captured the British sailors, a cowardly act to be sure if only because they targetted Brits instead of Americans, their limited psychological torture stacked up as light compared to what happened to the one IRCG officer the US released. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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