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Isiod
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Questions for oldfatfarang |
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To oldfatfarang.
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| And by grow up as a country, I mean providing our young people (note use of 'our' - not Pakeha or Maori) with jobs and an economic future. |
Does growing as a country simply mean economic growth, or does it mean the entrenching of a nationalist identity?
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| So, yes, our family knows about land confiscation - and ignorant racism - and, like may other displaced Scots - our family went out into the world (NZ/Canada) and made another life for themselves. No handouts - not looking to the past - and holding grudges - just got on with it - (just like many of the Maori families I know are doing). |
Being a Macdonald, I do know some of this history. I don't think Scotland is a fare comparison. It would be if English people owned most of the land in Scotland, and Scots were an impoverished minority, but then that sounds more like Northern Ireland.
When my ancestors were cleared off the highlands they were able to prosper by partaking in the colonisation of another country. Maori don't have that option.
It is 200 or so years of dispossession and mis-treatment that have put Maori in their current socio-economic situation, not so-called "looking backwards." In the past 20 years neo-liberalism has battered Maori in particular, but it seems that affirmative action and compensation are slowly allowing Maori to reach a comparable standard of living to other New Zealanders. Compare this to Australia were there is limited affirmative action or compensation. Obviously the histories are different, but things do seem to be working in NZ.
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We've become so politically correct that we can't even discuss an instance of an 'illegal arms depot/training camp and the Greivance Industry without demonstrators labelling the police as child harrassers and colonial abusers ('leave our children alone, Parihaka (sp?) etc') - or worse
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As for Political Correctness in recent events, I don't see it. The NZ media doesn't seem to be holding back on turning what's happened into generalised Maori bashing. And those protesting honestly feel that the scale and nature of the police operations were racially influenced. People are openly discussing this issue. I think PC is applied to arguments, when it's not even there. That is why I was keen for your definition.
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| I don't know about you mate, but last time I looked, NZ had one passport - for ALL its people. We're NZer's |
As for being one people, I have talked about this in a post on this thread.
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| Daves posters infering some Labor supporters are in fact NZ First supporters (ha). |
Finally, yes you voted for Labour, but the slogans still sound like they're off a National/NZ First site.
Cheers for your reply and thanks for the civil debate. Interesting to see some of the small racist rants popping up on this thread. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| blackjack wrote: |
By ancient past do you mean approx 80 million years ago when New Zealand separated from Gondwanaland?
Or are you referring to the myth that there were a pre-maori race of celts/Vikings that inhabited New Zealand for 1000s of years before the maori ?
There is nothing very ancient in New Zealand that is man-made |
Gondwanaland? Wow, sounds cool.
btw - the "myth" to which you refer ... what makes you so sure this is not fact? Apparently the physical remnants, strategically-placed MENHIRS etc. remain, & elders still speak of the stories of these fair red-headed Keltoi/ Viking sea-farers 
Seek out an elder. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| "You are not allowed automatic weapons unless you have a special licence and you are only allowed to discharge them at shooting ranges same goes for pistols." |
I know that this will be classified as hearsay, but according to a friend who went to a range. The police do have weapons that were supposed to be destroyed and are now used on the range,
Also if you are friends with them and he was, you can use those weapons under supervision without having a licence.Or at least I remember him telling me about the times he did it with them.
My issue is not whether there was a group using those weapons illegally, because NZ has a history of this type of behaviour going back years and it wasn't classified as terrorism before this. Its whether they really did plan to use them for terrorist reasons or is this simply a firearms issue?
Secondly, the Terrorism law was supposed to place NZ on the same level as the other countries, even though NZ doesn't face the same issues as others.
Is this a good use of the law, as they weren't charged under it but the firearms issue, even though the hype is about terrorism?
Thirdly, until they have gone through the courts system and been found guilty, they are not guilty, they simply the accused. But if you listen to public opinion, thats been superceded as of now.
Fourthly, do you believe that the actions of these few justifies the application of a new anti terrorism law or as was said (on TV 3) the government is using a scatter gun approach to laws?
There is no guarantee that the upcoming terrorism act will be passed, but as NZ'ers will you support it or argue against it due to its percieved relevancies.
Last edited by Summer Wine on Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:23 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Gondwanaland? Wow, sounds cool.
btw - the "myth" to which you refer ... what makes you so sure this is not fact? Apparently the physical remnants, strategically-placed MENHIRS etc. remain, & elders still speak of the stories of these fair red-headed Keltoi/ Viking sea-farers
Seek out an elder.
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Sometimes you are more destructive than supportive. Read the fine print first in this case. Its an important issue and doesn't deserve a general approach.
NZ issues could be used as an excuse later even if there is no real truth to them. Therefore if you do support freedom of expression and non use of general arguments. Argue specifics.
Mine suck, but I will adapt them, please do the same. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471106 |
I have agreed with part of what he said, mainly the last sections.
What do you think? |
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yushin
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| yet in a previous thread about nz a few months back I was pilloried by many (pakeha I suspect) for even daring to suggest that there was hint of racism in "Godzone"... is there indeed trouble in paradise? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| yet in a previous thread about nz a few months back I was pilloried by many (pakeha I suspect) for even daring to suggest that there was hint of racism in "Godzone"... is there indeed trouble in paradise? |
Actually in my case, I have heard more anti maori rights from immigrants. Is their trouble in Godzone?
The question is when hasn't there been?
The other question is whether this is overhyped to suit an agenda, whether a local or an international one?
The original question isn't a wrong question to ask, as it is simply a question. Its wrong to prevent questioning of this issue.
Another point is
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| (pakeha I suspect) |
, when did they become the scape goat? |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| yushin wrote: |
| yet in a previous thread about nz a few months back I was pilloried by many (pakeha I suspect) for even daring to suggest that there was hint of racism in "Godzone"... is there indeed trouble in paradise? |
I don't think anyone has denied that racism exists in NZ (i could be wrong) and whats up with the "pakeha I suspect"? |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
Gondwanaland? Wow, sounds cool.
btw - the "myth" to which you refer ... what makes you so sure this is not fact? Apparently the physical remnants, strategically-placed MENHIRS etc. remain, & elders still speak of the stories of these fair red-headed Keltoi/ Viking sea-farers
Seek out an elder.
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Sometimes you are more destructive than supportive. Read the fine print first in this case. Its an important issue and doesn't deserve a general approach.
NZ issues could be used as an excuse later even if there is no real truth to them. Therefore if you do support freedom of expression and non use of general arguments. Argue specifics.
Mine suck, but I will adapt them, please do the same. |
In this case igotthisguitar was responding to something I said and we have since taken it to pm.
You are right it is an important issue but only to us, nobody else gives a flying beeb |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
"You are not allowed automatic
weapons unless you have a special licence and you are only allowed to
discharge them at shooting ranges same goes for pistols." |
I know that this will be classified as hearsay, but according to a
friend who went to a range. The police do have weapons that were
supposed to be destroyed and are now used on the range,
Not sure if I understand this part but I am sure it is
possible, unlikely but possible and I would rather have the police have
illegal weapons than gangs/criminals (however I guess if the police have
illegal weapons that makes them criminals)
Also if you are friends with them and he was, you can use those weapons
under supervision without having a licence.Or at least I remember
him telling me about the times he did it with them.
yes you can use pistols and miltary style weapons without a
licence provided you are under direct supervision at a proper shooting
range. This is not to say that it is impossible. I don't have
a pistol licence yet I remember firing a 44 magnum at a claybird shoot,
I couldn't even hit a tree with it (we i was breaking the law and I
probably would have lost my arms licence if I had been caught however
that was unlikely as it was an arms officers gun 
My issue is not whether there was a group using those weapons illegally,
because NZ has a history of this type of behaviour going back years and
it wasn't classified as terrorism before this. Its whether they really
did plan to use them for terrorist reasons or is this simply a firearms
issue?
I see this as both a terrorism and firearms issue. If they
simply had guns and were shooting trees and wood pigeons then it would
be a firearms issue. They had bombs, ira training manuals and were
actively doing miltary style training. One of them has been quoted as
saying that he whats to kill white people and declare war on NZ.
Secondly, the Terrorism law was supposed to place NZ on the same level
as the other countries, even though NZ doesn't face the same issues as
others.
NZ had to make the laws to meet our international UN obligations
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4245701a11.html
Is this a good use of the law, as they weren't charged under it but the
firearms issue, even though the hype is about terrorism?
see above
Thirdly, until they have gone through the courts system and been found
guilty, they are not guilty, they simply the accused. But if you listen
to public opinion, thats been superceded as of now.
This goes for every high profile case look at the
Christopher Paul Neil case
Fourthly, do you believe that the actions of these few justifies the
application of a new anti terrorism law or as was said (on TV 3) the
government is using a scatter gun approach to laws?
There is no guarantee that the upcoming terrorism act will be passed,
but as NZ'ers will you support it or argue against it due to its
percieved relevancies. |
well that's enough for me back, to the thesis  |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| well that's enough for me back, to the thesis |
Whats the thesis?
By the way, it will be interesting to see the end result.
I do support the police right to deal with an issue, I am just curious if its supportable of the number of police needed to carry out the task or the use of law.
For all the arrests, media attention, etc. It still reads as if 60 - 70 police were used to arrest 1 - 2 people in Tame iti's home area.
I know that he's a radical, but prior to 2001 (and he used a weapon in a public place) he didn't need that kind of response.
Is NZ following the general world view and finding problems rather than solutions? We have radicals, but are they real terrorists needing to be dealt with under International terrorism laws? |
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