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Khenan
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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More than anything, I think, Rand had a significant superiority complex (I know the feeling), and couldn't stand the idea that others thought themselves her equal. I for one know it's all in my head 
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Here is such a paper, though bear in mind it's written by Dr. Edward Younkins Professor of Accountancy and Business Administration at Wheeling Jesuit University in West Virginia. He is the author of Capitalism and Commerce and not a philosopher. Well, it doesn't need to be, because although it deals with classic issues in philosophy like metaphysics and ethics, its axioms make it more like religion (or science) than philosophy, modern philosophy at least. Both science and religion assume certain things to be true without requiring proof. Science assumes direct correspondence between mind/language and an independent reality. Philosophy, some of it, doesn't assume that - it questions the claim. Philosophy attacks absolutely any and all claims.
That guy does a good job of making an abstract science paper from Rand's ideas.
I've never read any of her fiction. |
I look forward to reading this, but don't have time right now. I never doubted that someone must have written something real (i.e., not intended as fiction) on this subject, but to me the most telling aspect of her work is that she did in fact write it all up as fiction. Of course, there is a long history of fiction in philosophy - stretching back to the allegory of the cave - but it tends to be very, very short. The idea is to make yourself as clear as possible - not as obtuse as possible.
Ayn Rand was definately no philosopher - at best, she was a pissed off rich white woman filled with bourgois problems. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Khenan wrote: |
| Ayn Rand was definately no philosopher - at best, she was a pissed off rich white woman filled with bourgois problems. |
Rand would sure be surprised to learn that she was rich. She would equally be surprised to discover she is "white".
FYI. She was Jewish and an immigrant to the USA from the Soviet Union, where all of her family assets had been confiscated. She worked as a waitress and stand-in actress for a number of years while writing The Fountainhead. Later in life she worked as a professor.
If you got even the smallest details about the woman mixed up, what else do you think you don't know? Related, should you trust anything you have been told by the person who told you about Rand? |
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Otus
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Justin Hale wrote:
Well, let's get the silly stuff out of the way first and say that Otus is, I believe, a different poster from Otis, RACETRAITER. If Otus were Otis, he'd be using his account to send me puerile and vulgar gay and pron drivel. I believe you owe him an apology, even though he took the first cheap shot.
Racetraitor wrote:
In the past, Kevin has had usernames on here for long periods before he "activated" them. |
Sorry about the confusion. I have no connection with the so-called 'Otis' or 'Kevin' character. I've had the user name "Otus" for probably 6 or 7 years now. I've lived in Korea for about 13 years. Seem to have the uncanny knack of getting my user names copied or imitated on discussion boards ... maybe this is a common thing.
I admit to having baited racetraitor a couple of times - but never with vulgar or violent language ... nothing personal ... in fact I think he does some good work.
Well, hopefully back to the Rand discussion. ... |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
Alright, if the Great Depression isn't a good enough example, how about the following?
-Ford Pintos; took something like eight years before Ford admitted they intentionally turned their cars into bombs and took them off the market.
-tobacco industry & fast food industry
-Enron
-and that guy selling T-shirts outside the stadium, the band might have some problems with some random stranger making money off their name without any approval.
-horizontally integrated companies that own the media, thus keeping bad publicity about their other businesses out of the press
I think that the more power a person has, the more closely they should be watched, as they are more capable of doing harm to society. Corporate corruption, media manipulation, and defective products are just too common to be left alone. |
True enough - and tough luck! 
Regarding the media, I think something like the BBC is a great idea - a media entity funded by what is essentially taxation but at the same time independent of the state, since the media enrich our lives and protect our rights in the view of morality advocated by Rand.
As for the other things you mentioned, well, can you tell us precisely what relevance and significance you believe they have? |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Otus wrote: |
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Justin Hale wrote:
Well, let's get the silly stuff out of the way first and say that Otus is, I believe, a different poster from Otis, RACETRAITER. If Otus were Otis, he'd be using his account to send me puerile and vulgar gay and pron drivel. I believe you owe him an apology, even though he took the first cheap shot.
Racetraitor wrote:
In the past, Kevin has had usernames on here for long periods before he "activated" them. |
Sorry about the confusion. I have no connection with the so-called 'Otis' or 'Kevin' character. I've had the user name "Otus" for probably 6 or 7 years now. I've lived in Korea for about 13 years. Seem to have the uncanny knack of getting my user names copied or imitated on discussion boards ... maybe this is a common thing.
I admit to having baited racetraitor a couple of times - but never with vulgar or violent language ... nothing personal ... in fact I think he does some good work.
Well, hopefully back to the Rand discussion. ... |
Alright, then an apology is due. You have baited me in the past, and I've noticed. I think this is the second or third time I've threatened you. You're not who I thought you were so I'll save the aggro for the other guy. Sorry about that. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
True enough - and tough luck!
Regarding the media, I think something like the BBC is a great idea - a media entity funded by what is essentially taxation but at the same time independent of the state, since the media enrich our lives and protect our rights in the view of morality advocated by Rand.
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I agree. It's funny that government-owned media groups seem to have more freedom and objectivity when it comes to reporting on government issues. If you watch enough CBC in Canada, you'd think they were at war with the government. In contrast, American private news networks seem totally uncritical of the government, particularly Fox, whose agenda is to fully support the (current) administration. Although this could be more of a phenomenon of government transparency than media ownership.
| Justin Hale wrote: |
As for the other things you mentioned, well, can you tell us precisely what relevance and significance you believe they have? |
-tobacco industry & fast food industry
Both are examples of things that are in demand by consumers but which are ultimately bad for them. Companies make a fortune selling us stuff we don't need, which is not limited to these two industries but best exemplified by them.
-Ford Pintos; took something like eight years before Ford admitted they intentionally turned their cars into bombs and took them off the market.
If companies were allowed to do what they wanted with no checks on them except the market, we'd all be driving torpedos right now.
-Enron
The idea behind Rand's philosophy and the more thought-out laissez-faire capitalism is that rich people, in their need for more wealth, will do something that benefits the community. But there are ways to make even more wealth by hurting the community, such as what Enron did.
-horizontally integrated companies that own the media, thus keeping bad publicity about their other businesses out of the press
We really can't make informed decisions if our information is biased.
I don't understand why people mistrust the government but at the same time put their faith in corporations. A corporation with enough power is not much better than a government, except that the board of directors won't be voted out in four years.
Also, the "objective" reality is much different for poorer people. Sure, rich people suffer from paying taxes and funding a social safety net that they most likely will never use. But for poor people, it's much different, and things like welfare and universal health care save lives. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
If companies were allowed to do what they wanted with no checks on them except the market, we'd all be driving torpedos right now.
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Ayn Rand wasn't an anarchist. That aside, there are dogmatic market-liberals who would toss all regulation aside. They are a very small minority. Remember, though, that governments protect the firms who create these crappy products with limited liability arrangements and the like. Firms should be responsible for destructive products.
Ayn Rand was writing at a time when the debate wasn't 'to what extent regulation' but 'to what extent economic planning'. There are very different discussions and her ideas have to be looked at in that historical context. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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The Peel makes some very good points.
Racetraitor: if you're looking at benefits to society, capitalism isn't perfect (no system is). The primary justification for capitalism isn't society or any collective; it's the individual and their rights.
No other system can satisfy the individual's needs and desires better than capitalism. No other system gives each individual so much freedom to do what they want and not directly infringe on the rights of others.
You don't trust concentrated power? Me either, which is why I don't want a big government; no big corporation is as great a threat to liberty as big government. |
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Khenan
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Khenan wrote: |
| Ayn Rand was definately no philosopher - at best, she was a pissed off rich white woman filled with bourgois problems. |
Rand would sure be surprised to learn that she was rich. She would equally be surprised to discover she is "white".
FYI. She was Jewish and an immigrant to the USA from the Soviet Union, where all of her family assets had been confiscated. She worked as a waitress and stand-in actress for a number of years while writing The Fountainhead. Later in life she worked as a professor.
If you got even the smallest details about the woman mixed up, what else do you think you don't know? Related, should you trust anything you have been told by the person who told you about Rand? |
Well, those certainly are embarassing mistakes. I assure you, I did read the Fountainhead, but 90% or what I know about Rand as an individual came from the bio in the book and the lists of widely-varying products she was selling in her book - plus the fact that her books have sold more than a few copies.
I thank you for correcting me.
On a side note, is Jewish no longer white? All of my Jewish friends seem white to me. Are they Arabs now?
Maybe I assumed she was rich because of the disdain she seems to have for poor people (i.e., poor people are not competant enough to rise above the rest of the masses - this is my interpretation of her work, so I acknowledge that it might well be contentious.)
Edit: I have a feeling someone's going to attack that last statement (and perhaps rightfully so), so I think I'll add in something of a preliminary defense.
Obviously, Rand wasn't "disdainful," as I said, towards poor people specifically because they don't have money. The fact that Roark is portrayed as heroic while living in poverty is an easy counter to this. Additionally, she wasn't apparently fond of rich people either, and it would seem strange to be 'pro-middle-class' and anti-everything else, so we can assume that wasn't her position.
Rather, and I have a feeling that there might be some agreement here, I suppose I would say that Rand was disdainful towards most poor people because even though society dumped on them, they still chose to play by society's rules. My sense is that it's the "playing by society's rules" that she didn't approve of, and the fact that poor people are poor is simply an artifact of that behavior.
Something like that. Again, I would refer to my previous posts where I mentioned the benefit of making clear, concise statements during the expounding of one's philosophy.
Flame away.
Last edited by Khenan on Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Khenan wrote: |
On a side note, is Jewish no longer white? All of my Jewish friends seem white to me. Are they Arabs now?
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At the time of her writing, even Italians were not considered white. Today, the term white is a social construction that has moved beyond merely having light skin. Some say Arabs/Jews are white, and some not. I don't care. But at the time of Rand's writings, she would not have been considered part of White America, but also not as much of an outsider as a Black person. Even in the wake of the holocaust, a lingering antisemitism affected the lives of Jews in America. Better, Rand was a poor Russian immigrant from an ethnic minority.
Jews tend to be Semites, like Arabs. Yes. But there are converts to Jews and black Jews too (Sammy Davis Jr. and Lenny Kravitz (sp)). |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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And she did not disdain poor people. She loathed the arrogance of central planners. You are trying to use the objections of Capitalism that you have learned today to criticize her objections to central planning. The two don't fit.
I really enjoyed some of her books, but found them over the top at times. My favorite is Anthem (which is really over the top). |
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Khenan
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
Jews tend to be Semites, like Arabs. Yes. But there are converts to Jews and black Jews too (Sammy Davis Jr. and Lenny Kravitz (sp)). |
Fair enough - I know some converts as well (all white), but I think for our purposes that we're discussing "ethnic Jews"? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Khenan wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
Jews tend to be Semites, like Arabs. Yes. But there are converts to Jews and black Jews too (Sammy Davis Jr. and Lenny Kravitz (sp)). |
Fair enough - I know some converts as well (all white), but I think for our purposes that we're discussing "ethnic Jews"? |
Her being Jewish is irrelevant. My point was that she would not have been considered "white" at the time but rather an immigrant from Russia who was also an ethnic minority. |
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Khenan
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Khenan wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
Jews tend to be Semites, like Arabs. Yes. But there are converts to Jews and black Jews too (Sammy Davis Jr. and Lenny Kravitz (sp)). |
Fair enough - I know some converts as well (all white), but I think for our purposes that we're discussing "ethnic Jews"? |
Her being Jewish is irrelevant. My point was that she would not have been considered "white" at the time but rather an immigrant from Russia who was also an ethnic minority. |
Fair enough, point taken. Again, thank you for correcting me. I edited my last longer post I think while you were responding to it - my apologies, I thought I would have time - and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the last (new) portion of it. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| She sure wasn't much of a mothering, compassionate type. I think it rather fair to say that she was somewhat indifferent to the plight of the working poor and unemployed in capitalistic economies. |
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