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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Pearl Harbor |
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| He systematically and deliberately provoked the Japanese into attacking the United States |
Relations between the US & Japan were already soured. The 'Panay' was attacked & sunk in 1937, 4 years earlier. The assault on Allison by a Japanese officer further soured relations between Japan & the US. Japan had been out of control since 1937, the Rape of Nanking, & the invasion of Manchuria.
Following the Tripartite Pact in 1940:
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| President Roosevelt answered this challenge by seizing Japanese money and property in the U.S. and placing an embargo on exports of oil, steel, and iron to Japan. Great Britain and the Netherlands, who had colonies in East Asia, also cut off exports of oil to Japan. |
Diplomatic attempts by Japan, in the Fall of 1941, to have trade embargoes by the US lifted, had failed.
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| Japan felt it had to act. Without oil and metal, Japan couldn't continue the war in China, let alone win the Pacific empire its military rulers craved. The nation would have to go to war to seize these resources. But war against whom? The army wanted to attack the Soviet Union, which was fighting a war against Nazi Germany. The navy favored seizing the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia), British Malaysia, and the American Philippines. For the navy's plan to succeed, however, it would first have to destroy the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, which was based at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. |
Source: Japanese expansionist Plans
Additionally, Australia's allegiance before WW2 was with the UK, until the fall of Singapore. Prime Minister Curtin actually ordered Australian troops home, from North Africa, to defend Australia, from the Japanese, against the wishes of the UK. This was after the fall of supposedly impregnable Singapore, just 4 days before the attack on Darwin on February 19. Australia's primary military allegiance, since the Fall of Singapore, has been firmly with the US, ever since.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin
The conspiracy theory is weakened considerably, if you look at events outside the US, which was not operating in total isolation to global events. The likelihood of Curtin being in an international conspiracy, in cahoots with Roosevelt, is extremely remote, & highly implausible. Pearl Harbour was not an isolated event, but part of a broader strategic military goal of expansionist Japan. It was only a matter of time before the US was drawn into the war.
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On 8 December, the Pacific War broke out. Curtin took several crucial decisions. On 26 December, the Melbourne Herald published a New Year's message from Curtin, who wrote: "[w]ithout any inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the United Kingdom." This was received badly in Australia, the UK and the U.S.;[5] it angered Winston Churchill, and President Roosevelt said it "smacked of panic". The article nevertheless achieved the effect of drawing attention to the possibility that Australia would be invaded by Japan.
Curtin formed a close working relationship with the Allied Supreme Commander in the South West Pacific Area, General Douglas MacArthur. Curtin realised that Australia would be ignored unless it had a strong voice in Washington, and he wanted that voice to be MacArthur's. He gave control of Australian forces to MacArthur, directing Australian commanders to treat MacArthur's orders as coming from the Australian government. |
Subsequent events after Dec 1941 (Singapore / Darwin) proved Curtin right. Like FDR, he died in 1945.
Last edited by chris_J2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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mistermasan fancied:
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| did the US know a Japanese attack was forthcoming in 1941? i was taught as an undergrad in the university of hawaii that the US baited japan into striking first. it is stunning that people still assert that the US was an innocent that got rolled in this one. |
What a load of horse manure. And citing the University of Hawaii (in Manoa, the main campus, I presume) doesn't add to its credibility. The humanities are in an abysmal state. Every leftwing leftover loonie from the mainland teaches there. there. Of course, the haole-hating apologists in the local Japanese American community who can't bear to admit that their ancestors were sneaky bas-tards have influenced that opinion considerably, given their numbers on campus.
As Gopher indicated, the Navy was well aware that an attack was imminent. But knowing exactly when and where was a whole other matter. A flight of B-17s was due in from the mainland, messages were delayed or misplaced, and lots of other events coincided to prevent earlier action. Most of the top brass didn't think Hawaii would be hit but the Phillipines.
Even the Nisei war veterans accept this view, so why can't you? The fact that CzarJorge agrees with you should be a clue that you're clueless.
And this is hardly a current event. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Speaking as a "leftie"....please, Steve, Gopher, guys...don't associate us with these crackpot, tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. I think you guys know where I come from on this sort of stuff, but I can resurrect an old thread if you would like me to: |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Q: What's the difference between the Current Events forum and a potato field?
A: In a potato field, the horse manure gets recycled into something useful. But in the CE forum, the horse manure keeps getting recycled again and again...and it stays horse manure... |
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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| when did the US start building the pentagon? why would a peace loving, isolationist nation need such? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mistermasan wrote: |
| when did the US start building the pentagon? why would a peace loving, isolationist nation need such? |
Water tight logic. Case closed I guess. |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:08 am Post subject: |
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heaven forbid the US government ever does any forward planning...
For the record, I don't think it would take much of a conspiracy theory to goad a militaristic, war-mongering Japan, hot in pursuit of the East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, to attack the largest remaining power in said sphere. Especially when that power had been doing all of the economic and political work it could to thwart that country for years. Remember Japan had taken over Korea before World War I started, and had been steadily expanding for over 40 years. Its not like they were complacently not attacking until evil Americans forced them to with a sekrit conspiracy. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
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If you just look at some history, you will see that the majority of the population are almost always opposed to going to war. Thus, there must always be some galvanizing event in order to get the people to back the war effort.
From "Remember the Maine!" to the sinking of the Lusitania, to Washington's delay in notifying Pearl Harbor of the impending attack, to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, to name some, most or all of these "conspiracies" have panned out to be true after all. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Responsibility for the attack (on the 'Panay' in Nanking / Nanjing):
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| Modern historians have gone back and analyzed the attack. Many now believe that the attack may have been intentional. According to John Prados, Navy cryptographers had intercepted and decrypted traffic relating to the attacking planes which clearly indicated that they were under orders during the attack, and that it had not been a mistake of any kind. Writer Nick Sparks believes that the chaos in Nanking created an opportunity for renegade factions within the Japanese army who wanted to force the United States into an active conflict so that the Japanese could once and for all drive the United States out of China.[4] Considering the attack on Pearl Harbor 4 years later, it is not unlikely that the same hard-line factions in control in 1941 were wishing to provoke a war as early as 1937. |
Source Wikipedia. (which sources NPR:)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17110447 |
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