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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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 Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Just Inhale wrote: |
Your conclusion is the complete opposite of what I expected. You side with Big Bird on the translation, yet conclude the above.
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I hardly see why his conclusion is surprising. Oh wait, yes, this is after all Dave's, where cool logic and reason is generally scarce... yes perhaps it is rather surprising. You're right.
His conclusion is entirely logical. Since the 'wipe off the map' is not an accurate translation, the only explanations are that it was poor craftwork, or that it was a deliberate decision to 'up the rhetoric' as Mith put it.
If it were the latter, who might have made such a decision and why? Now that would make an interesting discussion, one I would enjoy seeing discussed. Instead, what we've mostly seen on this thread so far is the usual gibbering and jabbering and knee-jerkery I've come to expect around this place, confirming my initial reluctance to bother engaging with this topic. |
The point is that Mith reached - I suspect - a totally contrary conclusion to you. He or she advocated a zero tolerance attitude towards the fetid mewlings of the Iranian regime. You appear to bend over backwards to apologize for them.
Who perhaps willfully used the translation to up the rhetoric and why would indeed be interesting, from my perspective because it is contemptible. Like I said, the comment calls for aggression towards Israel and not, as would be defensible, justice for the Palestinians and there is absolutely no need to manipulate or exaggerate the threat posed by the Iranians, who make proclamations about being a martyr nation. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Iran has not acted on Israel and can not. |
Come on. And even the most aggressive American Cuba policies never denied that Cuba should exist as a nation-state.
You can oppose Israel and its policies without going down this road...
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Just Inhale wrote: |
Your conclusion is the complete opposite of what I expected. You side with Big Bird on the translation, yet conclude the above.
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I hardly see why his conclusion is surprising. Oh wait, yes, this is after all Dave's, where cool logic and reason is generally scarce... yes perhaps it is rather surprising. You're right.
His conclusion is entirely logical. Since the 'wipe off the map' is not an accurate translation, the only explanations are that it was poor craftwork, or that it was a deliberate decision to 'up the rhetoric' as Mith put it.
If it were the latter, who might have made such a decision and why? Now that would make an interesting discussion, one I would enjoy seeing discussed. Instead, what we've mostly seen on this thread so far is the usual gibbering and jabbering and knee-jerkery I've come to expect around this place, confirming my initial reluctance to bother engaging with this topic. |
The point is that Mith reached - I suspect - a totally contrary conclusion to you. He or she advocated a zero tolerance attitude towards the fetid mewlings of the Iranian regime. You appear to bend over backwards to apologize for them.
Who perhaps willfully used the translation to up the rhetoric and why would indeed be interesting, from my perspective because it is contemptible. Like I said, the comment calls for aggression towards Israel and not, as would be defensible, justice for the Palestinians and there is absolutely no need to manipulate or exaggerate the threat posed by the Iranians, who make proclamations about being a martyr nation. |
Whatever, Spinoza. I'm not really interested in engaging with you on this. You seem to have developed into something of a rabid extremist - the mirror image of some thuggish Al-Quada supporter, condoning violence against civillians on the most trivial of pretext. Some of your relish for violence on this forum has been utterly abhorent, well beyond what used to be your cheerful obnoxiousness. I thought you were smarter and bigger than this. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Dear me, I do wish folks would stop accusing me of being other posters. I've had Jinju, EFLtrainer and now a philosopher.
In any case, if we may return to the debate and turn away from ad hominem, the Iranian regime endorsed aggression towards the Israelis and not support for the Palestinians. This is the debate that needs to take place. The folks responsible for the manipulation and exaggerated translation should hang their heads in shame, since they have given rise to all manner of leftist obfuscation.
Your accusations of my thuggishness and my desire for violence against civilians are totally false and, yes, we know you're not interested in having this debate despite constant posts, having said so many times in this thread. Like the mod said, keep it civil. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
Dear me, I do wish folks would stop accusing me of being other posters. I've had Jinju, EFLtrainer and now a philosopher.
In any case, if we may return to the debate and turn away from ad hominem, the Iranian regime endorsed aggression towards the Israelis and not support for the Palestinians. This is the debate that needs to take place. The folks responsible for the manipulation and exaggerated translation should hang their heads in shame, since they have given rise to all manner of leftist obfuscation.
Your accusations of my thuggishness and my desire for violence against civilians are totally false and, yes, we know you're not interested in having this debate despite constant posts, having said so many times in this thread. Like the mod said, keep it civil. |
Thermonuclearman, the OP was about whether it was a mistranslation. The answer is yes. However, so many people here want it to be the true translation. Interesting.
Secondly, the wording of the mistranslation is very significant, because it gave rise to a belief (among the public) that Iran was planning to attack Israel. Which was nonsense. But it was convenient (from the perspectives of hawks pushing for a strike against Iran at that time) that we believed that Iran was actually threatening Israel's safety. In fact it was a clown talking tough and showing off to his audience, but it was not an actual declaration of intent to act.
May I ask you: would you have supported a strike on Iran, and do you think it would have come with no fallout? |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Just Inhale wrote: |
Your conclusion is the complete opposite of what I expected. You side with Big Bird on the translation, yet conclude the above.
|
I hardly see why his conclusion is surprising. Oh wait, yes, this is after all Dave's, where cool logic and reason is generally scarce... yes perhaps it is rather surprising. You're right.
His conclusion is entirely logical. Since the 'wipe off the map' is not an accurate translation, the only explanations are that it was poor craftwork, or that it was a deliberate decision to 'up the rhetoric' as Mith put it.
If it were the latter, who might have made such a decision and why? Now that would make an interesting discussion, one I would enjoy seeing discussed. Instead, what we've mostly seen on this thread so far is the usual gibbering and jabbering and knee-jerkery I've come to expect around this place, confirming my initial reluctance to bother engaging with this topic. |
The point is that Mith reached - I suspect - a totally contrary conclusion to you. He or she advocated a zero tolerance attitude towards the fetid mewlings of the Iranian regime. You appear to bend over backwards to apologize for them.
Who perhaps willfully used the translation to up the rhetoric and why would indeed be interesting, from my perspective because it is contemptible. Like I said, the comment calls for aggression towards Israel and not, as would be defensible, justice for the Palestinians and there is absolutely no need to manipulate or exaggerate the threat posed by the Iranians, who make proclamations about being a martyr nation. |
Whatever, Spinoza. I'm not really interested in engaging with you on this. You seem to have developed into something of a rabid extremist - the mirror image of some thuggish Al-Quada supporter, condoning violence against civillians on the most trivial of pretext. Some of your relish for violence on this forum has been utterly abhorent, well beyond what used to be your cheerful obnoxiousness. I thought you were smarter and bigger than this. |
You can't engage because you have been discovered and uncovered.
You still have not explained the poster?
Why did the Iranians translate what he said the exact same way? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
You can't engage because you have been discovered and uncovered.
You still have not explained the poster?
Why did the Iranians translate what he said the exact same way? |
Go back and read the thread again you fool. You've obviously missed whole paragraphs, or you have serious literacy issues. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
Dear me, I do wish folks would stop accusing me of being other posters. I've had Jinju, EFLtrainer and now a philosopher.
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Too intelligent to be Jinju, too different in outlook to be EFL, too much the spitting image of Spinoza not to be him. It's so bloody obvious. Though I must say I prefered your earlier incantation to this one. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Poster is recent. Iran continues to translate Amadinajads words that way. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Just Inhale wrote: |
Your conclusion is the complete opposite of what I expected. You side with Big Bird on the translation, yet conclude the above.
|
I hardly see why his conclusion is surprising. Oh wait, yes, this is after all Dave's, where cool logic and reason is generally scarce... yes perhaps it is rather surprising. You're right.
His conclusion is entirely logical. Since the 'wipe off the map' is not an accurate translation, the only explanations are that it was poor craftwork, or that it was a deliberate decision to 'up the rhetoric' as Mith put it.
If it were the latter, who might have made such a decision and why? Now that would make an interesting discussion, one I would enjoy seeing discussed. Instead, what we've mostly seen on this thread so far is the usual gibbering and jabbering and knee-jerkery I've come to expect around this place, confirming my initial reluctance to bother engaging with this topic. |
The point is that Mith reached - I suspect - a totally contrary conclusion to you. He or she advocated a zero tolerance attitude towards the fetid mewlings of the Iranian regime. You appear to bend over backwards to apologize for them.
Who perhaps willfully used the translation to up the rhetoric and why would indeed be interesting, from my perspective because it is contemptible. Like I said, the comment calls for aggression towards Israel and not, as would be defensible, justice for the Palestinians and there is absolutely no need to manipulate or exaggerate the threat posed by the Iranians, who make proclamations about being a martyr nation. |
Almost zero tolerance, so yes that's just about the conclusion I reached. I do remember one interview on the Daily Show I think a week or two back about the difference between speeches for international vs. domestic consumption, where in both the US and Iran and most other countries there's a general understanding in diplomacy that speeches made for the domestic audience can be up to 50% BS and that the ones made for the international audience are the ones to pay more attention to, and that when a government fails to understand this or uses domestically-inclined speeches as if they were going to be enacted as policy right away is when you get trouble, and lots of propaganda material. Kind of like that McCain comment on 100 years in Iraq - that was a comment from a small townhall meeting to make the point about how the US has been in Japan, Korea etc. for all this time and if Iraq turns out that way he would be fine with 100 years, but don't expect your average America-hating guy from wherever to get the point if McCain is elected president. I forget who said that though so I'll look for the link.
Iran has a ton of young people just reaching adulthood so their perceptions are pretty important when thinking long term.
PS: Mith = he.
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Bird wrote: |
| May I ask you: would you have supported a strike on Iran, and do you think it would have come with no fallout? |
How timely Mithridates' post directly above is.
The answer to your question, BB, is I'm not sure. Basically, if I invented a technology capable of making the Iranian senial theocrats suddenly, spontaneously, simultaneously cease to exist, I'd use it without a second's hesitation and with no emotion, remorse or regret. I don't know about war, but my concluding remarks in this thread were very good. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
You can't engage because you have been discovered and uncovered.
You still have not explained the poster?
Why did the Iranians translate what he said the exact same way? |
Go back and read the thread again you fool. You've obviously missed whole paragraphs, or you have serious literacy issues. |
You still ignore the poster.
Why did the Iranians translate it the same way?
Oh, cool let's just exchange insults.
I know you are but what am I? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| You still ignore the poster. |
People keep bringing this poster up. No offense, Joo. But I think that poster has Photoshop written all over it. Just my suspicion, especially all the English-langauge stuff and the conveniently-placed Iranian woman perhaps meant to make it look more authentic.
What do you have on that poster and that photograph's origins and how it got to us? |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
| You still ignore the poster. |
People keep bringing this poster up. No offense, Joo. But I think that poster has Photoshop written all over it. Just my suspicion, especially all the English-langauge stuff and the conveniently-placed Iranian woman perhaps meant to make it look more authentic.
What do you have on that poster and that photograph's origins and how it got to us? |
Who's Joo? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Joo cited Hitchens and presented the poster to which you refer.
| Christopher Hitchens wrote: |
| In the early '90s, I can remember seeing, in the areas around Baalbek in Lebanon that were dominated by Hezbollah and Amal, large posters of the by-then-late Khomeini embellished (in English) with the slogan, "Israel Must Be Completely Destroyed!" And I have twice been to Friday prayers in Tehran itself, addressed by leading mullahs and by former President Rafsanjani, where the more terse version (Marg bar Esrail�"Death to Israel") is chanted as a matter of routine... |
I find Hitchens generally unreliable. I asked Joo whether he had more information on the poster and the photograph's specific origins. Why should we take anything Hitchens, or any other journalist, for that matter, publishes at face-value?
I also take Big_Bird's point that some misrepresentation must be happening here. I think that Iran's die-hard critics -- people like Hitchens -- can be overly enthusiastic and this leads them to overstate and embellish, if not to demonize.
It remains clear, however, that Iran's policy of harassing and eventually destroying Israel as a nation-state is undeniably true and well-understood. I will not moralize on this. I merely point out that I agree that this conflicts with American interests in the Middle East and I support the American govt's opposing Tehran's ambitions and designs on this and other points.
I also note that the recent German-Israeli agreement makes Iran's position re: Israel a matter that conflicts with German interests as well. Israel has friends besides the United States.
CNN Reports |
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