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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How many Muslims do you know? |
Probably many more than you, although I fail to see what that has to do with a debate about any 'Islamic reformation'. Why not join in the debate, instead of introducing irrelevant points such as that. |
It does have relevance, because you told me above that Muslims simply use the no compulsion words only with non-Muslims and don't use in dicussions with each other, it is simply to assuage infidels. So, it is relevant to ask how well you really know the culture and the people.
I have spent time in Jordan, Egypt, and Kuwait. I can say I actually know the people from the horrible elements to their moderates. The moderates, in so many cases, do actually believe the no compulsion part and are proud of it.
As far as a reformation, it is said the Protestant reformation was influenced by Islam. I am not sure if that is true or not. What happened with the Muslim world as was stated earlier was that the liberal Sufis of the past once held sway in the various Islamic empires, but they were eclipsed by the more literal types. You don't seem to acknowledge this historical reality. I don't see why not?
As far as reformation, you seem to think that the Protestants just emerged over night. There were psychological, cultural seeds planted in Germany before princes went behind Martin Luther. It happened over many years of chafing under the power of the Roman Catholic Church.
These princes wanted more personal power, and some agreed with Martin Luther and he provided with his preaching a way for them to break away.
Can we really judge if there is a reformation occurring? We can't exactly. One may say that it appears there is one occuring with Egypt allowing Christians who converted to Islam recently to come back to Christianity, not forcing Bahais to either put Christian or Muslim on their ID cards, Turkey is giving more voice to the "heretical" Alevi sect in order to join the EU.
Granted, we only have the examples of Turkey and Egypt with some positive examples? Anything else? Well, in Lebanon the Sunni Muslims and the United States, are generally, politically on the same side, and many Lebanese Sunnis are quite moderate among Middle Eastern people. The Reformation had to start from somewhere and it started before Martin Luther was born in terms of the terrain becoming more and more ripe for change. You seem to think history is inorganic, and you are making a judgement with limited facts. We just know some places are making changes, so reforms are happening. Al Jazeera broadcast an atheist Syrian which is kind of interesting. The Middle East of the 1990
is not as conservative as that of 2008. I am sure many can admit that.
I am not going to claim major changes have happened. However, I welcome even small steps. |
Allow me to summarize the above: there is absolutely no wholesale paradigm shift akin to the Protestant Reformation demonstrable. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
Allow me to summarize the above: there is absolutely no wholesale paradigm shift akin to the Protestant Reformation demonstrable. |
What is your understanding of Reformation and how it occured historically? Was it some one event waiting for the clergyman named Martin Luther to show up. Of course, I don't think the reformation that will emerge from the Middle East will be similar, because there are different cultural contexts and it's a different culture, but there will be a different interpretation of the religion that one will look at which is where things might be similar and there will be more individual freedoms, but the Middle East hasn't had the papal control Europe had, so I can't expect there to be something that's the same.
Here's a question for you, Justin, what is your take on the promotion of moderate clerics by the governments, the loss of popularity for Al Qaeda in Jordan, Pakistan, and Egypt, retraining clerics in Saudi Arabia and sacking many, streamlining the hadiths in Turkey, a Coptic woman in Egypt leading dissident doctors in Egypt, allowing Bahais to leave their ID cards blank? There are reforms occuring in some places obviously, so there is some kind of reformation going on in some country if we use the word reforms. You can't deny that at later. Is there a massive change happening at the moment? No. |
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