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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| bangbayed wrote: |
This whole Clinton/Eisenhower/Reagan issue only shows how far to the right mainstream politics have gone.
Flame away. |
No. It shows how insufficient the two terms Left and Right have become in describing America's political discourse and its various ideologies. |
Because, in the global scale, there's such a huge difference between Republicans and Democrats? Really? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| bangbayed wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| bangbayed wrote: |
This whole Clinton/Eisenhower/Reagan issue only shows how far to the right mainstream politics have gone.
Flame away. |
No. It shows how insufficient the two terms Left and Right have become in describing America's political discourse and its various ideologies. |
Because, in the global scale, there's such a huge difference between Republicans and Democrats? Really? |
America has a two-party system. As a result, each ideology and political persuasion has to ally with others in order to be properly represented.
The Democrats and Republicans are coalition parties. Have you heard of the Reagan coalition? Reagan created the modern Republicans by taking the existing alliance between so-called Rockefeller Republicans with national security Conservatives and then bringing in the Religious Right, the social Conservatives.
Coalition builds can only happen when either one of the party brands is particularly strong in relation to the other. Usually a bad economy and poor performance has stung the incumbent party. Look at 1980, when the US was in dire straits economically. And look now, the advantage has turned to the Democrats. Obama is trying to recruit a religious moderate persuasion to the Democrats, and he has tacked center to appeal to independent voters and disaffected Republicans.
Perhaps you've heard of terms like DLC Democrat or the MoveOn wing or internationalist Democrats versus Democrat hawks. There are fractures and factions within the different parties, and there has always been tension between them. That is much of the importance of conventions, to meet and profess an allied platform position meant to include the views important to each constituency.
There can be a marked difference between any two Democrats. The same is true of Republicans, although arch-Leftists probably cannot perceive the differences (and in their own partisan framework, it may be advantageous for them not to acknowledge a meaningful difference).
One trait I've noticed on this board is that partisans critical of America exhibit the same attitude towards America(ns) as Americans supposedly exhibit towards the rest of the world: a kind of willing ignorance. The willing ignorance of Americans about the world allows them to brush aside unfavorable comparisons. But such partisans critical of America possess exactly the kind of willing ignorance re: America, which allows them to uncritically exacerbate American flaws. And when they're called on it, they usually resort to the same tired talking points justifying such ignorance.
Americans who are knowledgable about the world often find their own opinions resulting from such knowledge and exposure exhausting. They have to defend their perspective on two sides: against the American ignorant and the critical-of-America ignorant. Its not enough to recognize the differences sometimes, especially on a chatboard. And god forbid you advocate something you don't believe.
I don't know, its been a long election year and sometimes I just get tired of all of it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros: very, very nicely articulated. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually, probably more before this current election cycle, it was usually Americans who I've heard complain about the lack of difference between the two parties. And that was coming from both sides of the spectrum. But go ahead and read anti-Americanism into that comment if you really want to bring that into it. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
America has a two-party system. As a result, each ideology and political persuasion has to ally with others in order to be properly represented.
The Democrats and Republicans are coalition parties. Have you heard of the Reagan coalition? Reagan created the modern Republicans by taking the existing alliance between so-called Rockefeller Republicans with national security Conservatives and then bringing in the Religious Right, the social Conservatives.
Coalition builds can only happen when either one of the party brands is particularly strong in relation to the other. Usually a bad economy and poor performance has stung the incumbent party. Look at 1980, when the US was in dire straits economically. And look now, the advantage has turned to the Democrats. Obama is trying to recruit a religious moderate persuasion to the Democrats, and he has tacked center to appeal to independent voters and disaffected Republicans.
Perhaps you've heard of terms like DLC Democrat or the MoveOn wing or internationalist Democrats versus Democrat hawks. There are fractures and factions within the different parties, and there has always been tension between them. That is much of the importance of conventions, to meet and profess an allied platform position meant to include the views important to each constituency.
There can be a marked difference between any two Democrats. The same is true of Republicans, although arch-Leftists probably cannot perceive the differences (and in their own partisan framework, it may be advantageous for them not to acknowledge a meaningful difference). |
VERY NICELY SAID.
This needs to be articulated more. It is tiring to support one party for certain issues, and then have the other person just ASSUME you support all of the OTHER extremes of that party.
I have a strong streak of fiscal conservatism in me, quite a few Democratic issues, and quite a few Republican issues and even Libertarian issues that all appeal to me.
But, the present Republican Party and their direction has almost NO appeal to me. But there are some Republicans with stronger TRUE libertarian leanings that do appeal to me.
Sadly the hypocrisy of the Republican Party reeks of something fierce right now...Palin kept talking about 'tax and spend Dems' while supporting all of McCain's pro-Bush spending programs internationally and abroad, etc.
| bangbayed wrote: |
| Actually, probably more before this current election cycle, it was usually Americans who I've heard complain about the lack of difference between the two parties. |
There is ALWAYS that element as well, and they exist in every country. The element that says "I'm not going to vote, because they are ALL _____"
There did seem to be more of these people before, but this election, people in general seem much more politicized. The War in Iraq, and the economy really makes people see that politices DOES effect everyone.
When everything is just 'cool', people seem to ignore the fact that gov't does effect our lives. |
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