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The Atheist who stole christmas!
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Juregen

Joined: 30 May 2006

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

Juregen wrote:

itaewonguy wrote:

what I am saying is, Athiests shouldnt tell their children or mislead their children in believing in SANTA becuase it goes against everything they stand for...
they should be jewish and not celebrate xmas!

and how did you celebrate? did your presents say FROM SANTA?

My dear!

I am an Atheist, but was raised as a Christian.

I do believe that the celebration around X-mas time has more roots then just christianity.

Santa is an imagination of Coca Cola and has nothing to do with Christianity. It actually goes back to the figure of "Sinterklaas", which is still celebrated in Europe (yes, he was a saint).

The candles on the pine tree represent that sacrifice of life to heathen gods or the Sun to bring back the Sun.

Try to be a little bit more critical on what X-mas actually means, and then you will see that an Atheist is not wholly opposed to the idea of celebrating the return of the Sun.

nice .. but you didnt answer my question...
should atheists celebrate xmas as in writing a letter to santa and leaving milk and cookies for him? singing carols, and believing a big fat jolly man leaves gifts to kids who are nice and not naughty!
should atheist parents role play this belief for their children as young as 1-8 years old?? doesnt it conflict with their morals?
thats the question... please answer it..

I actually did.

My point of view is that Santa has nothing to do with religion.

As an atheist I also have no problems with fantasy, and living a fantasy.

Kids have imagination, and using that imagination to make them think about what those holidays actually mean for mankind is not bad thing at all.

That said, I celebrate Sinterklaas, but do not celebrate Santa claus.

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:41 am Post subject:

red_devil wrote:

Did you make this thread just because you were getting pwnd in mine? By the way if you actually knew your shit you'd know that the Christmas that is celebrated has little to do with your Christ. Certainly i didn't see a fat man in a red suit delivering presents to the people in Jesus' manger. Not to mention that most civilizations celebrated "Christmas" in its early forms much much earlier than your Jesus person.

Where does Dawkins "call Priests stupid"? Again, you know nothing about what you're talking about...not to mention the whole nature of this thread.

http://www.history.com/minisites/christmas/

ohhhhh here we go!!! Someone who didn�t even read my posts but just jumped to conclusions because he was threatened with GOD in there somewhere!!

Ok I'll write it again... Jeeeesuuuuus!!!
Atheists disapprove of believing in GOD! They also find people who believe in gods stupid for believing in fairy tales! Believing in fantasy!
Right??
It turns your stomach that a car load of people drive to church on Sunday and worship a fantasy!!

So my point is...

Where do Atheists draw the line regarding Christmas or lying to kids
Are you following me yet??

So an atheist will have a child... does the atheist encourage the belief of Santa Claus? Do they lead the child on for 6-8 years??
or do they just celebrate christmas without lying to the child?

Many atheists answered YES We lie!! Because it�s harmless and its part of growing up and the children grow up to realize the lie anyway.. its all fun

Ed probably wouldn�t celebrate Xmas, because it�s lying...

So my point is this...
IF you agree that believing in Santa is fine for children and as an atheist father, will encourage such disbelief for the happiness of your child...

Why not leave Adults alone for celebrating Christ???
The point of it all is happiness, so where do you as an atheist draw the line?
Happiness is happiness and everyone is entitled to their happiness...

Regarding DAWKINS! Yes he is guilty of name calling!
Do you need me to quote it for you where he calls god believers insane?

Not to mention in his documentaries he goes head to head with religious folk and attacks them! Not downright rude... but he must be thinking it!!
And I bet he would love to say it if he wasn�t such a celebrity..

But because it took you so long to understand this thread, Justin and the other guys have already answered my questions on where the Atheists stands as a father or a friend of a dying loved one. Basically I wanted to know if there is exception to being atheist and when that exception is..

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:51 am Post subject:

[quote="Juregen"][quote="itaewonguy"][quote="Juregen"]

itaewonguy wrote:

nothing to do with religion thats right! but now I will have to agree with ED
lying is lying!
you will decieve your children in believing in santa because it benefits them.. so whats wrong with believing in JESUS as an Adult..?
where is the line drawn and why?

red_devil

Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:04 am Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

red_devil wrote:

First of all you're not an atheist. You're a fundamentalist raving Christian. So where do you get off by assuming you know what atheists believe or don't believe? You can't even formulate a coherent argument against the people here! It doesn't turn my stomach when people go worship at churches, no do i hate or make fun of people that do. I really don't care what ghost or figment of your imagination you want to worship and throw money at. I think it's insulting that you actually are insuinating all this. What are you...15?

To answer your question, I (can't speak for everyone like you try to) would tell my kids once they are at an age where they intellectually are able to distinguish the philosophical difference between reality and fantasy...which probably won't be until they start to get some education...and unlike fundamentalists that shun everything that doesn't agree with their predesposed position on religion, i would encourage my child to experience and know as many differing belief systems, perspectives, and philosophies as possible.

Secondly, Christmas isn't Christian as much as the Christians want to lay claim to it, at best maybe the name. Atheists have no problem celebrating Christmas because it's a tradition and part of normal society. You make it seem as if atheists don't go to the streets with pickets decrying Christmas and all others as being bunk, suddenly we are betraying our own principles. Which in itself is so laughable because then Christians would have been decredited centuries ago for the crimes they've committed under the name of the Holy. I nor any other of my atheist friends have shamed or told other parents how to raise their kids. On the flip side, i've had many religious people outright tell me i will go to hell and for the sake of my children i should try to see Jesus and get saved.

And yes, please find me the data and resources where Dawkins "calls priests stupid". I would like to see/hear it for myself. As far as your stupid thread, i don't check it very often because usually it's pages and pages of you spouting the same mindless, unintelligible, rhetoric. You wonder why people are calling you a fundamentalist? Because despite the integrity of some of the responses here, you blindly charge ahead declaring how right you are and ignoring the points that you aren't able to address. That's exactly what makes a fundamentalist.

At which point typically the intellectual throws up his hands, and walks away saying "ok ok i give up, you go your way, i'll go mine - let's not talk again." At least until the Christian shows up at his door with a shrink wrapped Bible and brochures on how to save his soul.

Last edited by red_devil on Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:08 am; edited 2 times in total

uberscheisse

Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:06 am Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

race and justin, you havent answered my question...

if you had a 2 year old son or 4 year old daughter would you keep the fantasy alive and leave cookies and milk out for him and let your daughter write a note to santa? or you tell them the truth to ruin the fun?

answer - i'd never tell them about it.

1. i give gifts to people in my family because i love them. not because of some pagan tradition co-opted by christian faggots.

2. any kid i have is going to be trained out of seasonal consumerism from the day they learn what currency is.

basically, i'm not a fucking tool. my kids won't be, either. no matter how much it gets them butt-hurt that they don't get some stupid video game this year.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject:

Itaewonguy, you are setting up the most obvious and deliberate strawman I have seen in awhile. And it won't even work. There is no contradiction whatsoever if an Athiest has their kids believe in Santa Claus and them finding out later it's a myth. There are so many fricken obvious reasons why I won't bother (plus the main ones have been hit already).

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

Itaewonguy, you are setting up the most obvious and deliberate strawman I have seen in awhile. And it won't even work. There is no contradiction whatsoever if an Athiest has their kids believe in Santa Claus and them finding out later it's a myth. There are so many fricken obvious reasons why I won't bother (plus the main ones have been hit already).

Santa provides atheists with an excellent teaching point from the get out. Remember how you used to believe in Santa and now that you can think rationally it makes no sense?

Does an atheist parent have to jump in and explain every magic trick a kid sees? Does an atheist have to explain everything at disney is fake? We're allowed to let our children have their childhood fantasies.

Juregen

Joined: 30 May 2006

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

Juregen wrote:

You make an interesting point.
You are also saying that believing in Jesus is a lie.

I can only tell you my personal point of view.

I do not thrust my atheism upon others. I also like others not to thrust theirs upon me.

The reason why I celebrate Sinterklaas, X-mas and Newyear has nothing to with telling lies, but all about getting together and telling stories.

Fantasy is not a lie, believing that fantasy is true is a lie.
So the question remains, is making children believe a fantasy is true also a lie?

The consequence of making a child believe that fantasy is true is actually positive. Their world is richer because of it.

The consequence of an Adult believing that a fantasy is true is negative. Because it will shape its behavior according to the fantasy rather then reality.

greedy_bones

Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

The differences are pretty simple. A kid believes in Santa Clause and then stops. The belief in Santa has no effect on my life other than an expectation to buy gifts once a year.

The belief in Jesus, however affects my life because laws are passed and politicians are elected based on a belief in Jesus. Liquor laws, marriage laws, abortion laws, stem cell research laws, and obscenity laws are based on Christian doctrine.

Teaching of Sex ed and science in public schools is hindered by Christianity.

In the US, an Atheist is unelectable because of Christianity.

In the US, less than half the population accept a scientific theory with more evidence then the germ theory of disease or electron theory.

You'll notice Atheists aren't actively arguing against Buddhism either. This is because while it is equally false in an Atheists mind, it has little to no effect on an Atheist's life.

Last edited by greedy_bones on Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject:

greedy_bones wrote:

You'll notice Atheists aren't actively arguing against Buddhism either. This is because while it is equally false in an Atheists mind, it has little to no effect on an Atheist's life.

Now there's a nice point.

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject:

red_devil wrote:

First of all you're not an atheist. You're a fundamentalist raving Christian. So where do you get off by assuming you know what atheists believe or don't believe?

Please don�t reach for the second bottle of SOJ... It's beginning to damper your ability to read!!
Touchy touchy aren�t we!!!

Quote:

You can't even formulate a coherent argument against the people here

There is an argument against GOD?? When did this happen? Thought you were atheists!!??
Isn't it a slamdunk? you need faith?

Quote:

It doesn't turn my stomach when people go worship at churches, no do i hate or make fun of people that do. I really don't care what ghost or figment of your imagination you want to worship and throw money at. I think it's insulting that you actually are insuinating all this. What are you...15?

But encouraging belief in Christmas, and throwing money away that is fine right?
Because you personally benefit from it... but becuase you dont benefit anything what soever from believing GOD, ITS wasting money! Right I get you now...

Quote:

To answer your question, I (can't speak for everyone like you try to) would tell my kids once they are at an age where they intellectually are able to distinguish the philosophical difference between reality and fantasy...which probably won't be until they start to get some education...and unlike fundamentalists that shun everything that doesn't agree with their predesposed position on religion, i would encourage my child to experience and know as many differing belief systems, perspectives, and philosophies as possible.

Ohh ok so you go against everything an Atheist stands for... ok I see...

Quote:

Secondly, Christmas isn't Christian as much as the Christians want to lay claim to it, at best maybe the name. Atheists have no problem celebrating Christmas because it's a tradition and part of normal society.

You are not a fast one are you...?

So again I will repeat,
You have no problem deceiving your children and encouraging false reality and fantasy and then set them up for a big disappointment all because it benefits you and them! LYING IS LYING! And believing in false realities and encouraging it is abuse!
Well it should be in the eyes of true Atheists... or is it?!
I mean. This is what this thread is all about...
I didn�t start this thread to prove GOD through Santa or lay claim it�s ok to believe in god because you encourage santa.... I started this thread to see the deep psyche of the Atheists and see how far they are willing to go with encouraging believing in fairytales... seems 10% of a humans life.. Interesting...( I am not looking to set up a strawman here, this is nothing to do with christianity or god!)

Quote:

You make it seem as if atheists don't go to the streets with pickets decrying Christmas and all others as being bunk, suddenly we are betraying our own principles. Which in itself is so laughable because then Christians would have been decredited centuries ago for the crimes they've committed under the name of the Holy.

I am not talking about Christians, don't feel threatened so you have to bring up Christians... we are discussing atheists here not Christians...
I don�t think it�s laughable because you seem to only draw a line when you are not benefitting!

Quote:

I nor any other of my atheist friends have shamed or told other parents how to raise their kids. On the flip side, i've had many religious people outright tell me i will go to hell and for the sake of my children i should try to see Jesus and get saved.

My Asian friends have been beaten up for just being ASIAN...
I have had black friends beaten up for just being black...

Your point is???

Or how about this! I have to live my life by rules of government telling me how I must live my life or I will go to prison or be fined!!

Quote:

And yes, please find me the data and resources where Dawkins "calls priests stupid". I would like to see/hear it for myself.

Guess you haven't read the gods delusion,
but he does say It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).
So of course a priest is one of those idiots... but like I said before if you bothered to read, he will choose his words carefully now becuase he is getting paid millions and doesnt want to make enemies and be a cruel person. But we all know he is thinking it!

Quote:

As far as your stupid thread, i don't check it very often because usually it's pages and pages of you spouting the same mindless, unintelligible, rhetoric. You wonder why people are calling you a fundamentalist? Because despite the integrity of some of the responses here, you blindly charge ahead declaring how right you are and ignoring the points that you aren't able to address. That's exactly what makes a fundamentalist.

I have never said how right I am, that's what Atheists do..
I am agnostic I don�t have a side... and I am certainly not a fundamentalist. But I can�t say the same for you...you just keep attacking! I am just asking questions and you are going off the handle!!

Quote:

At which point typically the intellectual throws up his hands, and walks away saying "ok ok i give up, you go your way, I�ll go mine - let's not talk again." At least until the Christian shows up at his door with a shrink wrapped Bible and brochures on how to save his soul.

Don�t confuse yourself as an intellectual... A bigot is a better choice of word!

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject:

[quote="greedy_bones"][quote="itaewonguy"]

Quote:

nothing The differences are pretty simple. A kid believes in Santa Clause and then stops. The belief in Santa has no effect on my life other than an expectation to buy gifts once a year.

True that...
But people start to believe in god after Santa pretty much right?
And then humans believe in god because it�s little harder to disprove than Santa! So believing in GOD is justifiable...

Quote:

The belief in Jesus, however affects my life because laws are passed and politicians are elected based on a belief in Jesus. Liquor laws, marriage laws, abortion laws, stem cell research laws, and obscenity laws are based on Christian doctrine.

emmm tricky subject... are you saying that if there was no Christianity in society then we wouldn�t have the laws we have now? A lawless country?
Is that what you want to see?
Abortion and stem cell laws has nothing to do with Christianity, its morality
VERY TRICKY subject and a huge debate..
certain laws are needed to keep a sense of harmony. Religion doesnt fuel all the laws and we know it.. if that was the case then we would see stoning to death and other acts which are in the bible.. USA laws are passed due to trying to prevent social problems etc..

Quote:

Teaching of Sex ed and science in public schools is hindered by Christianity.

You have a better idea for sex education in school in a MTV world??
It�s an uncomfortable subject for teachers and students can�t blame Christianity, because in Thailand or Myanmar it�s taught differently too...
Again it�s a social issue not a religious one...
becuase if it was religious , the teacher would be forced to say
" and remember kids, we must not have sex until we marry"
what you want taught? S & M and bondage? freaky fetishes and positions
teaching kids to rememeber to pull out and cum to the face?
how do christians teach sex education?

Quote:

In the US, an Atheist is unelectable because of Christianity.

I don�t get it, you saying there are a lot of people who believe in god in the USA??
people would have said the same about a black president.
believing in GOD didnt get him into office..
BUT it surely helped him.. and yes an Atheist will probably not win..
but hey, GOD cant be disproved.. so...

Quote:

In the US, less than half the population accepts a scientific theory with more evidence then the germ theory of disease or electron theory.

Well, more research and education needs to be done I guess...
Remember it was Christianity which built America! LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!
you can't expect the views to change over night.. rosa parks was sitting on a bus just 50 years ago probably going to church...

Quote:

You'll notice Atheists aren't actively arguing against Buddhism either.

Seems it�s only a hand full of people who are arguing against religion...
Seems USA likes god and want him around.. YOU VOTE! You pass the laws!
Religion has spoken! GOD BLESS AMERICA isn�t it??
Seems you need to find another place to live my friend...
and leave usa to the religious folk! you have that right.. we are all governed by laws.. I want to smoke marijuana freely, its GODS plant after all.. but can I smoke it?? NO! do I blame the christians? NO!
I blame society..

Ill tell you one thing, Atheist or not... when it comes to LAWS to govern the people we need laws of morality. A Christian is biased to his beliefs; he has the upper hand in politics and makes laws which they think are best for the citizen with morality and god as the witness...
But if an Atheist is elected into Office, the laws will be changed to benefit his views and moral laws based on his beliefs. not gods law...
I Think a lot of Atheists would actually even prefer GODS LAW to man law!
for the safety and easier lifestyle it will have for all of us..

Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

But people start to believe in god after Santa pretty much right?

This is perhaps one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever come up with.

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:19 am Post subject:

Underwaterbob wrote:

itaewonguy wrote:

But people start to believe in god after Santa pretty much right?

This is perhaps one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever come up with.

just saying An educated mind chooses to believe in god, where an early child believes in santa,, so pretty much a child in school will start to believe in god and continue believing and questioning god ..
kids dont question santa when they are three, or know what is god!

joshuahirtle27

Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: Re: The Atheist who stole christmas!

itaewonguy wrote:

An Atheist doesn�t celebrate Christmas for their kids...

They just give presents, but don�t celebrate the fantasy of it and don't let kids believe in Santa!!
Wow fun growing up in an Atheists household...: roll:
As soon as a child can speak the Atheist will tell their children there is no Father Christmas!! No Easter bunny, tooth fairy and GOD!!

Welcome to life kids...

The atheists will say, well at least I am not abusing my children with lies!!

So my question is this...

IS this the right way?? Should we all stop celebrating Xmas?? To keep the Atheist happy??
I mean this is what they want right; they want the world rid of childish fantasies! Christmas carols etc., ALL GONE!

We should not celebrate Easter with the Easter bunny, because it�s just stupid fantasy! Ohh I know lets tell the children first that there is no Easter bunny and then play the games!! WOW FUN!!

We should not leave 50cents under our children�s pillow and let me believe it was the tooth fairy!! Because that�s child abuse!!

WOW I thank my mum, even though she was Agnostic, she kept the fantasy alive for my kindy years!!

Man feel sorry for the kids who have Atheists for parents!

I always try to have a completely non-offensive and politically correct holiday... It's what Jesus would want.

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