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sharkey
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
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| Jerry Fallwell says dancing leads to premarital sex, drinking, smoking, voting pro-choice and driving foreign cars. |
All things I will happily do on your grave Jerry. |
hahah i read that bit about foreign cars and was just like wtf , someone shoot this idiot and save his family the trouble |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Xingyiman Wrote:
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| So have gays. The difference - you like those guys. |
I thought you had no prejudice against them. Hmm.
Truth be told, I like some, others not so much. It depends on the person.
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| And I have yet to see a valid argument as to why they should be. |
Then listen. They love one another, want to build a life together, and want all the same property rights and rights of benefits that others are given when they form a partnership.
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| What will it gain them apart from what a civil union would already bestow upon them? |
As for the difference between civil union and marriage, it's mostly a matter of semantics. The word "marriage" has a symbolic meaning. It acknowledges the humanity of the couple.
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| What they want is blanket acceptence of their lifestyles and the majority of people (religious and not) have shown that they are not willing to concede. |
This is why we have a fight on our hands, a fight for freedom. People are ignorant and need to be brought to their senses.
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Omkara: I'm "uncomfortable" with Christians practicing symbolic cannibalism, drinking blood and eating flesh.
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| Xingyman: As the little pop tarts in the 90's used to say. "If ya don't like it....don't look!" When was the last time anyone forcefully coerced you to go to a communion service? |
When was the last time anyone forced you to kiss the groom at a gay wedding?
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| Moreover, who has threatened you with prosecution for "hate speech" because you voiced your disdain for it? Churches don't hold communion services in public nor do they ask the government for official recognition of their rites. |
They get special tax breaks on property, income, etc.
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Mores and norms do change over time but they change as peoples attitudes change not through judicial mandate as you would sugest. Some mores remain as well. |
That Obama was elected president shows that this argument doesn't hold water. Through legislation and civil movements, we have gained much ground.
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What makes you so sure?
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| Rome is burning Omkara. Look out your window. |
I see a bunch of boys--who are not Roman--playing soccer.
Yes, the world has serious problems, including this ignorance we debate. That is why it is so important to fight for what is right, and in the right way. Not all things are burning. There is progress. There is new birth.
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| So how would gay marriage be beneficial to society? I am waiting for the answer to that one. |
First, it would go a long way to erasing irrational mores and folkways, would go a long way to end discrimination, would go a long way to prevent violence in the community.
Moreover, ending thus the prejudices, we would enable a wider range of possible contributory roles which the homosexuals could play in the society.
I cannot see any negatives.
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Are you in favor of extending your crusade to those individuals who consult astrological charts or make decisions while practicing Wicca? Or do you still just have a thing for Christians? |
I like your choice of word, "crusade." There is a wonderful irony when you apply the word to atheists.
I will extend my "crusade" to oppose any and all who would organize to tyrannize others by superstition and prejudice.
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| I do not think it is outrageous. Traditionally gays have not had the benefit of legal marriage. |
Argumentum ad Antiquitatem--appeal to tradition. This is a logical fallacy. That something has been done traditionally does not serve as proof that it is just or right.
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We don't let brothers and sisters marry either. Why? |
Good question. It leads to birth defects and low resistance to diseases. There is a rational foundation here.
That's all I ask of the religious. They can come from any sentiment they wish, but I want to see a rational foundation. Is this asking too much?
Apparently, yes. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
Xingyiman Wrote:
I thought you had no prejudice against them. Hmm. |
Hmmm... The words "Those guys" could be construed to mean the guy
sitting next to me. If you are gonna use inference please be more tactful than that.
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Truth be told, I like some, others not so much. It depends on the person.
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Unless of course they are Christians and then they are painted with your wide, stereotypical brush. I am sorry that you feel your experience with Christianity justifies blanket feelings and assumptions.
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| Then listen. They love one another, want to build a life together, and want all the same property rights and rights of benefits that others are given when they form a partnership. |
Which they now have with civil unions. They they want to invade the traditional institution of marriage and twist it to their own ends. I have to ask is this good? Maybe...maybe not. You've not demonstrated either aside from conjecture.
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| As for the difference between civil union and marriage, it's mostly a matter of semantics. The word "marriage" has a symbolic meaning. It acknowledges the humanity of the couple. |
Which will only come about if the people who voted the way they did in California change their views. This wont happen by fascist judicial manuevering. Do you think they've done a switcheroo in 2 months?
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| People are ignorant and need to be brought to their senses. |
Thus is the argument of any institution or regime seeking to further its own agenda.
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| When was the last time anyone forced you to kiss the groom at a gay wedding? |
When a person feels compulsed to agree with a lifestyle that is inherently wrong it is their perogative to stand against it. The voters are taxpayers and they chose not to allow the state to make the proclamation through legislation that the union of two guys/gals is on equal footing with the trationaional definition of a marriage.
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| They get special tax breaks on property, income, etc. |
Oh come now....Would you absolve them from your judgements if they didn't?
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That Obama was elected president shows that this argument doesn't hold water. Through legislation and civil movements, we have gained much ground. |
What's Obama got to do with this? The same people who voted for Obama voted against gay marriage.
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What makes you so sure?
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The same sentiments and attatchments which makes you so passionate about your beliefs.
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| I see a bunch of boys--who are not Roman--playing soccer. |
Sophmoric. I expect more.
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| First, it would go a long way to erasing irrational mores and folkways |
BS. Astrology's popular draw among educated peoples negates those assumptions.
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| would go a long way to end discrimination |
Forcing minority opinion of on anyone has led to the contrary throughout history.
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| would go a long way to prevent violence in the community. |
Another assumption.
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| Moreover, ending thus the prejudices, we would enable a wider range of possible contributory roles which the homosexuals could play in the society. |
And what contributary roles would that be? Can gays provide a better household than a traditional mother and father? Do pray tell.
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| I cannot see any negatives. |
Because you have a dog in the game.
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| I will extend my "crusade" to oppose any and all who would organize to tyrannize others by superstition and prejudice. |
Unless its Christians who are on the recieveing end eh? Then it's ok.
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| Argumentum ad Auitatem--appeal to tradition. This is a logical fallacy. That something has been done traditionally does not serve as proof that it is just or right. |
When applied to the issues of right and wrong concerning theft, adultry etc... This argument can be used to justify anyything. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Can gays provide a better household than a traditional mother and father? Do pray tell. |
Only traditional mothers and fathers are getting married these days? I've met plenty of gay people who'd make better parents than many of the 'traditional' parents I've met. Please define 'traditional' so California can extend the ban to 90% of the population. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Your skill as an arguer would improve did you stick to the issues and not take to attacking my character or assuming things about me.
Xingyman Wrote:
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| Unless of course they are Christians and then they are painted with your wide, stereotypical brush. |
I attack one concept which binds all of Christians together: faith. It is dangerous, insufficient for justifying law.
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They they want to invade the traditional institution of marriage and twist it to their own ends. |
Who is invading? And "twist"?
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| Which will only come about if the people who voted the way they did in California change their views. This wont happen by fascist judicial manuevering. |
Facist? You obviously don't get the ethical dilemma. Have you heard of the tyranny of the majority? This is why civil rights should not be decided at the ballot box. Really. Think long and hard on this point.
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Sophmoric. I expect more. |
You expect too much.
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| Omkara: Moreover, ending thus the prejudices, we would enable a wider range of possible contributory roles which the homosexuals could play in the society. |
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| And what contributary roles would that be? Can gays provide a better household than a traditional mother and father? Do pray tell. |
The legalization of homosexual marriage would help to normalize the group. Then, prejudices would lower. As a consequence, we'd encounter less discrimination in the work place. We'd contribute to humanize homosexuals did we honor their human instinct to love one another in a committed and fully recognized partnership.
Raising children is not the only role of marriage, though it is an important aspect of raising children.
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Because you have a dog in the game. |
Yes, I am attracted you you. I wanna hump your leg.
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| Argumentum ad Auitatem--appeal to tradition. This is a logical fallacy. That something has been done traditionally does not serve as proof that it is just or right. |
When applied to the issues of right and wrong concerning theft, adultry etc... This argument can be used to justify anyything. |
[/quote]
Justify? Not properly. Rationalize? Yes. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
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| Can gays provide a better household than a traditional mother and father? Do pray tell. |
Only traditional mothers and fathers are getting married these days? I've met plenty of gay people who'd make better parents than many of the 'traditional' parents I've met. Please define 'traditional' so California can extend the ban to 90% of the population. |
It was an encompassing statement. Men and women will make better rearers of children. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
Your skill as an arguer would improve did you stick to the issues and not take to attacking my character or assuming things about me.
Xingyman Wrote:
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| Unless of course they are Christians and then they are painted with your wide, stereotypical brush. |
I attack one concept which binds all of Christians together: faith. It is dangerous, insufficient for justifying law.
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They they want to invade the traditional institution of marriage and twist it to their own ends. |
Who is invading? And "twist"?
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| Which will only come about if the people who voted the way they did in California change their views. This wont happen by fascist judicial manuevering. |
Facist? You obviously don't get the ethical dilemma. Have you heard of the tyranny of the majority? This is why civil rights should not be decided at the ballot box. Really. Think long and hard on this point.
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Sophmoric. I expect more. |
You expect too much.
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| Omkara: Moreover, ending thus the prejudices, we would enable a wider range of possible contributory roles which the homosexuals could play in the society. |
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| And what contributary roles would that be? Can gays provide a better household than a traditional mother and father? Do pray tell. |
The legalization of homosexual marriage would help to normalize the group. Then, prejudices would lower. As a consequence, we'd encounter less discrimination in the work place. We'd contribute to humanize homosexuals did we honor their human instinct to love one another in a committed and fully recognized partnership.
Raising children is not the only role of marriage, though it is an important aspect of raising children.
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Because you have a dog in the game. |
Yes, I am attracted you you. I wanna hump your leg.
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| Argumentum ad Auitatem--appeal to tradition. This is a logical fallacy. That something has been done traditionally does not serve as proof that it is just or right. |
When applied to the issues of right and wrong concerning theft, adultry etc... This argument can be used to justify anyything. |
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Justify? Not properly. Rationalize? Yes.[/quote]
And your skill in everything would improve if you would not hide behind your true motivations. This thread started as an attack against Christians in general and then we all find out it's because you're sore about the anti gay vote in Cali.
You are right about one thing. I was expecting too much.
We have a differnece of opinon. Society currently doesn't support your views so you rationalize any and all measures because you have the audacity to claim that your views are superior to those of the voting public. No sciety has the right to harm members of its populace but also no members of the populace should have the privalege of imposing a minority view on the general majority when it conflicts with the basic tenents of what they believe to be right. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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Xingyman Spake:
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| And your skill in everything would improve if you would not hide behind your true motivations. |
Not hiding a thing. Stick to the propositions. Contradict, agree or abstain. That's enough.
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| This thread started as an attack against Christians in general and then we all find out it's because you're sore about the anti gay vote in Cali. |
The gay issue was but an example. You took it up. That's fine. I enjoy to debate the topic.
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You are right about one thing. I was expecting too much. |
I hope this doesn't extend to mean that you expected gay sex. I'd marry you, but sex is out of the question.
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| We have a differnece of opinon. |
I'm willing to change mine. Just convince me.
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| Society currently doesn't support your views so you rationalize any and all measures because you have the audacity to claim that your views are superior to those of the voting public. |
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
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| No sciety has the right to harm members of its populace but also no members of the populace should have the privalege of imposing a minority view on the general majority [. . .]. |
Right. Except, when the majority is wrong and tyrannizing a minority.
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| [. . .]when it conflicts with the basic tenents of what they believe to be right. |
Again, this is about more than belief. It is about justified, true belief.
I could believe that dancing will break down the social order, and so disallow it. If my church gets large enough, we can vote for a ban on dancing.
Absurd? Abstract the content, and notice that the form is the same as the gay issue. |
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aka Dave
Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Oops! I thought this was about Fruit Loops, the cereal. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| xingyiman wrote: |
| ED209 wrote: |
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| Can gays provide a better household than a traditional mother and father? Do pray tell. |
Only traditional mothers and fathers are getting married these days? I've met plenty of gay people who'd make better parents than many of the 'traditional' parents I've met. Please define 'traditional' so California can extend the ban to 90% of the population. |
It was an encompassing statement. Men and women will make better rearers of children. |
Oh, sorry. You had the answer all along. Silly me not noticing you had all the facts at hand.
Should marriage be based on child rearing ability? |
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GreenlightmeansGO
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I have faith that there is no such thing as God. I have seen no miracles and I am devoted to not believing in God. Nothing at all you say can change what I am thinking. How can you try to change what I am thinking when there have been such horrible religious people throughout history?
Look at Hitler. Look at the crusades. Look at Bin Laden.
Nature is my saviour, my faith is unshakable that God does not exist and that we should follow rationality and science. Dawkins and others are great men. They are not trying to mislead you, they are being open and honest.
We need not prove atheism or argue it, we just need to point at science textbooks.
Infuriating argument, isn't it? |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| murmanjake wrote: |
seems like a joke to me...
I really, really need your dollars today.
-Jerry Falwell
Reverend Jerry Falwell says dancing leads to pre-marital sex, drinking, smoking, voting pro-choice, and driving foreign cars. And I always trust Reverend Falwell.
-Mrs. Lloyd Douglas, Ned Beatty, Wyoming
But this shit can get real scary. Anyone see Jesus Camp? |
I thought for sure it was a joke too. The last paragraph was great: send for the free pamphlet, "You can dance your way to hell if you want," and "we can stop this sinful activity before God sends another plague of Muslim Airline Pilots our way." I thought that was great humor.
Then I looked up "Thomas Road Baptist Church" and now am not sure what to think.
People are nuts, and a good scam artist can get very rich from that. If there's a hell I hope to see Falwell there. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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There definitely would appear to be something wrong with people who have "unshakeable faith that God does not exist".
If someone is absolutely closed to the idea of spiritual enligtenment - and blind to the historical fact that way more people have been killed because of atheistic application of so-called scientific theories - then what can be done?
You can wake-up someone who is sleeping, but you can't wake up someone who is pretending to be asleep.
Here's a good quote from a philosopher with a Ph..D from Princeton -
To a Nobel Prize scientist's argument -- offered at a conference on "science, religion and reason" -- that "for good people to do evil things, [it] takes religion," Berlinski responds: "Just who has imposed on the suffering human race poison gas, barbed wire, high explosives, experiments in eugenics, the formula for Zyklon B, heavy artillery, pseudo-scientific justifications for mass murder, cluster bombs, attack submarines, napalm, intercontinental ballistic missiles, military space platforms, and nuclear weapons?"
"If memory serves," he writes, "it was not the Vatican."
www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/responding_to_neoatheism.html
The more dangerous nutjobs are those who blindly worship science as their savior while not respecting the sanctity of all forms of life. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
Xingyman Spake:
Not hiding a thing. Stick to the propositions. Contradict, agree or abstain. That's enough. |
Yes indeed you are. You began a general rant about Christianity that was spurred on by a miffed composure resulting from the California vote. I would have no problem if you simply stated "Right wing Christians are a bunch of nut jobs because they voted against gay marriage in California and I am mad about it." You say that you are "enraged" by injustice? Well where's the justice in your rant when you are targeting Christians alone without imploring the same tactics against say, African Americans aho solidly voted against it? Where are the comments and slurs toward African Americans regarding their ingnorance and superstitious natures?
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The gay issue was but an example. You took it up. |
Yes and in doing so I exposed your true motivations. Happy to oblige anyone who's hiding an agenda.
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I hope this doesn't extend to mean that you expected gay sex. I'd marry you, but sex is out of the question. |
Wow, all I can say is - you are a real tosser.
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| I'm willing to change mine. Just convince me. |
Been doing just that. Your opinions are as firm as mine. The difference is that I am not attacking gays from irrelevent angles.
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| Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. |
And you accuse me of not being able to argue coherently?
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| Right. Except, when the majority is wrong and tyrannizing a minority. |
And you have yet to show the tryranny in not allowing same sex couples be able to recieve a certificate of marriage that gives them nothing more tangible than civil unions already grant. THey are not being denied fiscally, equitably, or on any other measures. They simply are asking for something that this alone will not give them - the hearts and minds of those who disagree, which by evidence of the vote are in the majority.
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| Again, this is about more than belief. It is about justified, true belief. |
And again who justifies these things? People who think like you or a mojority concensus of concerned parties?
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| I could believe that dancing will break down the social order, and so disallow it. If my church gets large enough, we can vote for a ban on dancing. |
Well.....society does have the power to impart restrictions on it's members. Ever lived in a gated community? A few years back my city council voted to ban skateboarders from praticing their craft in the public park. Well the vote was overwhelmingly passed in lieu of the "tyranny" toward the skateboarders. The city council wasn't telling them that they no longer could ride skatebards, they simply laid out the rules upon how far they could go in relation to the people who objected to their activities.
Last edited by xingyiman on Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:50 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| ...the historical fact that way more people have been killed because of atheistic application of so-called scientific theories... |
Let's see you try and qualify that one.
Blame this on Atheism:
http://satyameva-jayate.org/2006/10/01/the-largest-genocide-in-history/
| Rteacher wrote: |
| The more dangerous nutjobs are those who blindly worship science as their savior while not respecting the sanctity of all forms of life. |
Who exactly are they? Your notion of the "mad" scientist is quaint at best. |
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