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| To what degree do they deny the painfully obvious? |
| All of the time they deny the painfully obvious |
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34% |
[ 9 ] |
| Most of the time they deny the painfully obvious |
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42% |
[ 11 ] |
| Sometimes they deny the painfully obvious |
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15% |
[ 4 ] |
| Rarely do they deny the painfully obvious |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Seems Koreans can't survive without a fight, an opposition creates a balance in their world.
In my opinion unification is the end of Korea, and it will happen, but only with a war that ends Korea as we know it. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I suppose that what you're getting at is that there is a parallel with the drug situation, that somehow "we" have created ultra-violent Jamaican, Haitian, Mexican, etc. gangs by our unholy craving for narcotics. I don't buy this, but it is a common argument, one usually advanced by those on the left.
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Well, I wasn't trying to put forth some sort of bleeding heart "those poor saintly immigrants are forced to sell booze and drugs by the vile white majority" claptrap. Obviously, any market, criminal or otherwise, depends for its existence on the willing participation of both the buyers and the sellers. What I was trying to say is that I think organized crime is pretty much going to be a fixture of any modern society, irrespective of immigration patterns.
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| But that does not explain the existence of the various Southeast Asian gangs, for example, that specialize in home invasions, extortion, and the like. Where is the market for that? Why do we need that mess? |
Obviously, we don't need that mess. But, what solution would you propose to the problem of Korean gangs shaking down Korean grocers? You seem to be impying that we should cut off Korean immigration. Well, yes, if we had done that, there would not be Korean gangs right now, that I will grant you. Guess what, though? There wouldn't be any Korean grocers either. Or Korean doctors. Or Korean investors pumping money into the economy. Okay, maybe you can live without ANY Koreans in Canada, but what I'm trying to say here is that, when you're calculating the net benefits and losses of immigration, its not enough to just say "Koreans=gangs" and leave it at that. That's just a mirror image of the simplistic, sentimentalist multiculturalism that you rightly decry on the left. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Let's look at that another way, taking the example of Somalis. They are very recent immigrants, yet have already set up criminal gangs, in Canada as well as the U.S. Were they somehow supplanting other criminals or were they merely adding to the lawlessness? I believe that they are creating criminality rather than fulfilling some sort of need. Therefore, in the unlikely event that these criminals be deported, I speculate that biker gangs will not step in to keep up the heightened level of criminality. |
What exactly are these Somali gangs doing? If it involves things like drugs, prostitution, or gambling, I think you'd have to be pretty naive to imagine that someone else, immigrant or otherwise, wouldn't be doing it in their absence. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Talking about organised crime and specifically the drug trade, I want to high-light something that is often ignored. It is the users who create the market, a lot of people don't want to face that. America consumes more drugs than any other country, and they talk about a war on drugs. No body wants to talk about the fact that one of the biggest drug markets is for cocaine, and that is not a working class drug. Some people who want to link drug use to poverty and other crime ignore the fact that the bulk of the cocaine consumed in the US is going up the noses of business executives and clubbing kids of wealthy parents. Why is there no crack down on this? Why is crack cocaine targeted for such a big focus? Is it because the users are typically black and poor? Cocaine is a much bigger market in terms of dollars, and it's a stronger drug too. So why does crack draw much much longer sentences? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Let's look at that another way, taking the example of Somalis. They are very recent immigrants, yet have already set up criminal gangs, in Canada as well as the U.S. Were they somehow supplanting other criminals or were they merely adding to the lawlessness? I believe that they are creating criminality rather than fulfilling some sort of need. Therefore, in the unlikely event that these criminals be deported, I speculate that biker gangs will not step in to keep up the heightened level of criminality. |
What exactly are these Somali gangs doing? If it involves things like drugs, prostitution, or gambling, I think you'd have to be pretty naive to imagine that someone else, immigrant or otherwise, wouldn't be doing it in their absence. |
Likewise, I think one would have to be pretty naive to believe that someone else was doing it before the Somalis came and stopped doing it as soon as the Somalis came to pick up the slack. It's rather more likely there was an overall increase in criminality. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
I suppose that what you're getting at is that there is a parallel with the drug situation, that somehow "we" have created ultra-violent Jamaican, Haitian, Mexican, etc. gangs by our unholy craving for narcotics. I don't buy this, but it is a common argument, one usually advanced by those on the left.
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Well, I wasn't trying to put forth some sort of bleeding heart "those poor saintly immigrants are forced to sell booze and drugs by the vile white majority" claptrap. Obviously, any market, criminal or otherwise, depends for its existence on the willing participation of both the buyers and the sellers. What I was trying to say is that I think organized crime is pretty much going to be a fixture of any modern society, irrespective of immigration patterns.
| Quote: |
| But that does not explain the existence of the various Southeast Asian gangs, for example, that specialize in home invasions, extortion, and the like. Where is the market for that? Why do we need that mess? |
Obviously, we don't need that mess. But, what solution would you propose to the problem of Korean gangs shaking down Korean grocers? You seem to be impying that we should cut off Korean immigration. Well, yes, if we had done that, there would not be Korean gangs right now, that I will grant you. Guess what, though? There wouldn't be any Korean grocers either. Or Korean doctors. Or Korean investors pumping money into the economy. Okay, maybe you can live without ANY Koreans in Canada, but what I'm trying to say here is that, when you're calculating the net benefits and losses of immigration, its not enough to just say "Koreans=gangs" and leave it at that. That's just a mirror image of the simplistic, sentimentalist multiculturalism that you rightly decry on the left. |
Maybe we need to have the chance to form a coherent immigration policy without fear that those on that side of the spectrum will shout "racist", "elitist", etc. the instant immigration reform comes up for discussion. Right away, you bring up the straw man of "you want to shut everyone out!" No, I just would like to see a policy based upon some reflection of how the immigration explosion has changed the U.S. from the 1970s until now.
What about those Korean doctors? Let's take your point about the criminals and turn it around. Do you suppose there were no non-Korean doctors before Korean doctors came or that if the Korean doctors weren't there that someone else wouldn't also be practicing medicine?
And, frankly, not all immigrants are created equal. Koreans, for example, usually have the wherewithal and make the choice to immigrate to North America. Some turn to criminal activity, probably most do not. But a place like Somalia, literally no one there has the financial ability or their life together to just get on a plane and fly to the U.S. to start a new life. The U.S. government, under the blithe mantra of "diversity is what makes us strong" literally picks them up, brings them over, and in their gratitude, too many of them run amok. Someone mentioned smoking crack -- I think too many INS bureaucrats are on crack. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we need to have the chance to form a coherent immigration policy without fear that those on that side of the spectrum will shout "racist", "elitist", etc. the instant immigration reform comes up for discussion. Right away, you bring up the straw man of "you want to shut everyone out!" No, I just would like to see a policy based upon some reflection of how the immigration explosion has changed the U.S. from the 1970s until now.
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That "straw man", as you term it, was simply a conclusion I drew from what you had already written. You talked about increased crime resulting from increased immigration. So, I just made an assumption about what your solution to the crime problem would be.
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What about those Korean doctors? Let's take your point about the criminals and turn it around. Do you suppose there were no non-Korean doctors before Korean doctors came or that if the Korean doctors weren't there that someone else wouldn't also be practicing medicine?
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In Canada, I believe, foreign doctors tend to work in the more remote areas that native-born physicians tend to avoid. I think the Canadian government encourages this somehow, but I'm not exactly sure how the program works.
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| No, I just would like to see a policy based upon some reflection of how the immigration explosion has changed the U.S. from the 1970s until now. |
Starting in the late 80s, the crime rate in the USA began a decline that lasted at least a decade, and may still be going on now. So, right in the middle of this "immigration explosion", as you call it, the crime rate starts to nosedive. Did the immigrants cause this sudden drop in crime? Not likely. But the "immigration explosion" clearly didn't do much to increase the crime rate, either. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
Maybe we need to have the chance to form a coherent immigration policy without fear that those on that side of the spectrum will shout "racist", "elitist", etc. the instant immigration reform comes up for discussion. Right away, you bring up the straw man of "you want to shut everyone out!" No, I just would like to see a policy based upon some reflection of how the immigration explosion has changed the U.S. from the 1970s until now.
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That "straw man", as you term it, was simply a conclusion I drew from what you had already written. You talked about increased crime resulting from increased immigration. So, I just made an assumption about what your solution to the crime problem would be.
| Quote: |
What about those Korean doctors? Let's take your point about the criminals and turn it around. Do you suppose there were no non-Korean doctors before Korean doctors came or that if the Korean doctors weren't there that someone else wouldn't also be practicing medicine?
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In Canada, I believe, foreign doctors tend to work in the more remote areas that native-born physicians tend to avoid. I think the Canadian government encourages this somehow, but I'm not exactly sure how the program works. |
There's a good example then. That's the kind of thing that should be taken into account. I would say then, let's not just encourage immigrants from countries "A", "B", and "C", but let's allow immigrant physicians who are willing to provide medical services in rural areas in return for a green card.
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Starting in the late 80s, the crime rate in the USA began a decline that lasted at least a decade, and may still be going on now. So, right in the middle of this "immigration explosion", as you call it, the crime rate starts to nosedive. Did the immigrants cause this sudden drop in crime? Not likely. But the "immigration explosion" clearly didn't do much to increase the crime rate, either. |
It's not just crime, but the whole range of quality of life issues. If the population of your state or province, for example, nearly doubles in population in fewer than thirty years, what are the effects on water, schools, disappearing farmland, pollution, and so on? Is immigration such a holy issue that these things cannot be discussed? It would seem so.
Also, crime is not just a national statistic, but a personal and local issue as well. If crime has risen dramatically in your town, the fact that strong-arm robberies in New York City have declined a few percent over the past decade is no comfort. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Have to throw in my two cents I guess. Don't know how many times I've heard ridiculous things, but enough anyway. The basic message of "There's no _________ in Korea" (gays, mental illness, AIDS, etc...), or if there is, brought here by foreigners.
Even more remarkable perhaps was an official statement a few years ago by some Thai politician: "There is no prostitution in Thailand."  |
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