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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| If I believe that there is a ruling class that controls the banks and the media, and through that a fair chunk of the political-economy, and that this group apparently wishes to reduce the demos to a state of wilful slavery, does that make me a conspiracy theorist? I don't believe that this group is highly organized, or diabolically criminal, or particularly farsighted, or has stated goals as such; mainly they're just greedy and capitalizing on an uncentred and nihilistic cultural climate. |
While many here would be quick to label you a conspiracy theorist, I made the exact point you are making here in 9/11 was no conspiracy. To wit: "It was simply business as usual for the rulers. It is not a question of management by conspiracy, but rather the ruling class has to operate in conspiratorial fashion." |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Nope, because Koveras said:
| Koveras wrote: |
| I don't believe that this group is highly organized, or diabolically criminal, or particularly farsighted, or has stated goals as such; mainly they're just greedy and capitalizing on an uncentred and nihilistic cultural climate. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bump. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: |
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The second link, of the CIA chief talking about the "Third World" war, was especially good.
But how could you leave out Missing Links? |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Why the stories about Obama's birth certificate will never die
Barack Obama was, without question, born in the U.S., and he is eligible to be president, but experts on conspiracy theories say that won't ever matter to those who believe otherwise.
By Alex Koppelman
Barack Obama can't be president: He wasn't really born in Hawaii, and the certification of live birth his campaign released is a forgery. He was born in Kenya. Or maybe Indonesia. Or, wait, maybe he was born in Hawaii -- but that doesn't matter, since he was also a British citizen at birth because of his father, and you can't be a "natural-born citizen" in that case. (But then, maybe his "father" wasn't really his father; maybe his real dad was an obscure communist poet. Or Malcolm X.)
You might think these rumors would have died off after Obama produced proof in June that he was, in fact, born in Hawaii to an American citizen, his mother, Ann, or after Hawaii state officials confirmed in October that he was born there. You might think the rumors would have died off after he was elected by a comfortable margin. Instead, they've intensified.
But according to several experts in conspiracy theories, and in the psychology of people who believe in conspiracy theories, there's little chance those people who think Obama is barred from the presidency will ever be convinced otherwise. "There's no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody's mind," says Michael Shermer, who is the publisher of Skeptic magazine and a columnist for Scientific American, and who holds an undergraduate and a master's degree in psychology. "The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it ... Once you're committed, especially behaviorally committed or financially committed, the more impossible it becomes to change your mind."
Any inconvenient facts are irrelevant. People who believe in a conspiracy theory "develop a selective perception, their mind refuses to accept contrary evidence," Chip Berlet, a senior analyst with Political Research Associates who studies such theories, says. "As soon as you criticize a conspiracy theory, you become part of the conspiracy."
Evan Harrington, a social psychologist who is an associate professor at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, agrees. "One of the tendencies of the conspiracy notion, the whole appeal, is that a lot of the information the believer has is secret or special," Harrington says. "The real evidence is out there, [and] you can give them all this evidence, but they'll have convenient ways to discredit [it]."
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/12/05/birth_certificate/ |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: |
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It is really retarded to speak of "conspiracy theory" as if there is a single great one, or that the thousands of theories out there are all equivalent, or that if someone believes one, he believes them all. So this thread is essentially meaningless.
Cite specific facts, then we can talk. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| This thread is about the psychology and mindset of people who believe in conspiracy theories. I have cited specifics...two studies of said people. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:04 am Post subject: |
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I don't like the theme of this. It is possible for two people to experience an event differently, and come to different conclusions.
I don't believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy, aside from the muslim conspiracy as told by the government. However, Regicide has made a pretty darn good case that the Kennedy assassination is a wider conspiracy. Sometimes, they're true.
One of my major grievances with 'our' (though probably all) culture is the narrowness of acceptable opinion. We pretend we are living in free states, but we really aren't. The goalposts of acceptable public (and now with thought crimes in Canada, private too) opinion are exceptionally narrow. And I see no reason to narrow them further, calling every weird idea that comes out a "conspiracy theory" as a means to shut down discussion. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I don't like the theme of this. It is possible for two people to experience an event differently, and come to different conclusions. |
That is precisely my point. An analogous example can be shown by looking at the design and production of maps. In map design, a great deal of attention is paid to accuracy, representation, scale, thematic elements, etc. But at some point, map designers asked themselves, "maybe we should also be looking at the psychological and cognitive processes that take place when people look at and interpret maps." It's the other side of the equation. The brain-side, for lack of a better expression.
If some people believe in conspiracies and conspiracy theories that have been demonstrated to be untrue, its reasonable to ask on a cognitive level why is this happening? Is it possible that there is something else going on, in the mind, that causes some people to believe in these theories despite the fact the theories have been shown to be physically impossible? The psychological reasons why people believe in false conspiracies themselves may be incorrect...but why shouldn't they be explored and tested for validity any less than the conspiracy theories themselves?
| Quote: |
I don't believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy, aside from the muslim conspiracy as told by the government. However, Regicide has made a pretty darn good case that the Kennedy assassination is a wider conspiracy. Sometimes, they're true.
One of my major grievances with 'our' (though probably all) culture is the narrowness of acceptable opinion. We pretend we are living in free states, but we really aren't. The goalposts of acceptable public (and now with thought crimes in Canada, private too) opinion are exceptionally narrow. And I see no reason to narrow them further, calling every weird idea that comes out a "conspiracy theory" as a means to shut down discussion. |
Well, that is hardly likely to take place, for a number of reasons. First of all, conspiracy theorists are so convinced of the validity of their theories that no attempt at rational explanation will ever "shut them down". Second, even if a conspiracy theory - or all conspiracy theories - can be explained as a form of delusion, nobody is about to deny the conspiracy theorists their right to be delusional. If that is what makes them happy. Science has pretty much demonstrated that Santa Claus doesn't exist, but nobody has used this as a justification for making Santa Claus, or any discussion of him, illegal.
Third, we can take your point and turn it around and ask the same question. If one of your complaints is about the "narrowness of accepted opinion in our supposedly free society", than why is it ok to discuss conspiracy theories but not free to discuss the psychology of conspiracy theorists? It is, after all, a free society.
I personally strongly believe in and support the discussion of conspiracy theories and theorists because they are intended to be a misallocation of effort and an attempt to create learned helplessness in a democratic society. When people are induced to believe that 911 was a gigantic government conspiracy, that the moon landings were a hoax intended to fool the public, and that Kennedy was assassinated by a government plot, they come to believe that they live in a world where they have no control over the levers of power in their government, their economy, and their civilization. When that happens, they simply withdraw. From participation in their society and their polity. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| This thread is about the psychology and mindset of people who believe in conspiracy theories. I have cited specifics...two studies of said people. |
Since that group includes just about everybody, it proves my point about the meaninglessness of this thread. Or are you saying that there are people who believe that no group of people has ever collaborated on anything? Do you? No, you believe in at least two: one, the conspiracy to shut down discussion of conspiracy theory psychology, and two, that for Catholics to abuse children. So you are including yourself in this group of "conspiracy theorists?"
| mises wrote: |
| One of my major grievances with 'our' (though probably all) culture is the narrowness of acceptable opinion. We pretend we are living in free states, but we really aren't. The goalposts of acceptable public (and now with thought crimes in Canada, private too) opinion are exceptionally narrow. And I see no reason to narrow them further, calling every weird idea that comes out a "conspiracy theory" as a means to shut down discussion. |
That is exactly what the epithet does, and is used by some when they do not want "inconvenient" ideas to become widespread.
| Quote: |
| I don't believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy, aside from the muslim conspiracy as told by the government. |
9/11 was no conspiracy. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Ya know, the more I read about conspiracy theorists, the more I realize that, if I was apt to believe in the theories, I'd support the conspirators. |
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dporter
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| I personally strongly believe in and support the discussion of conspiracy theories and theorists because they are intended to be a misallocation of effort and an attempt to create learned helplessness in a democratic society. When people are induced to believe that 911 was a gigantic government conspiracy, that the moon landings were a hoax intended to fool the public, and that Kennedy was assassinated by a government plot, they come to believe that they live in a world where they have no control over the levers of power in their government, their economy, and their civilization. When that happens, they simply withdraw. From participation in their society and their polity. |
I disagree.
The most politically active people I know would be labeled as conspiracy theorists. They financially support political candidates. They volunteer their time and resources to copy and distribute information to inform others of their cause. They consistently seek out new information on their particular interests.
In fact, I would argue the most withdrawn from society are not conspiracy theorists but rather those who simply allow the gov't to exist without given it any critical thought. They sit on their butts, watch Oprah, and eat poison infused fast food. |
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