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Doctor Killed by Anti-Abortionist
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject:

I'd like it if you would answer a simple question with a direct yes or no answer to clarify your case, vonjunk: does a baby, in your estimation, have an equal or greater right to a woman's body than the woman herself?

eperdue4ad

Joined: 22 May 2006

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject:

vonjunk wrote:

...

I think you and I are missing each others' points. To get it back on track, my original claim was based on the Tiller situation. He was one of a handful of doctors in the US to provide second and third-trimester abortions, while following the laws of his state. Many, many of the procedures were *wanted* children whose parents found out about a non-viability issue during second and third-trimester ultrasound. It was this situation I wanted to explain, as I have no interest in another general abortion round-table with point-counterpoint we've all heard before.

Non-viability means that the fetus will die shortly after birth. A fetus developing without a major organ...many other issues. It's sad, graphic, and let's not get into it. This is why a grandmother's arthritis doesn't compare. If a grandmother were on life support, however, she would be non-viable. What doctor or church group should have the right to force her family to watch her final hours of confusion or pain?

Nobody can assume that a late-term abortion is a cavalier choice. Again, many of them were wanted children. And unless you are carrying a "baby" in your "tummy" [sic] you can't condemn the woman to carry out the remainder of her pregnancy, arrive at 40 weeks gestation at a mother's hospital where she sees everyone else's healthy pink-cheeked babies, and force her to give birth to a doomed child. It doesn't work like that.

Read the links posted in this thread. The women were already mourning the future loss of their non-viable children. Yet their states of residence would not allow them to do anything besides carry to term and very publicly have a stillbirth. So they went to Tiller or the other couple of doctors who give a shot to stop the fetal heart and allow a private delivery, in contrast to a "life" consisting of a few hours spent struggling to take a breath.

vonjunk wrote:

Why not argue science?

Ok. A "baby" does not grow in a "tummy." It's pedantic but if we have to argue science, say it loud say it proud...UTERUS Smile

Tiger Beer

Joined: 07 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject:

Hey woman-haters, and Taliban-admiring Americans...killing doctors isn't the way to go! Why not write and call your leader Rush Limbaugh, perhaps there can be a way to legislate that all teenage pregnant woman must be imprisoned for 9 months? Hmm...hmmm... Maybe fund pregnant-seeking sensors in the malls...any sign of life in the tummy of a teenager, and straight to the CLINK for 9 months. America: Going in the direction by the people for the people. Imprison teenage girls! Taliban-admiring Americans, you KNOW you want to!

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject:

Tiger Beer wrote:

Maybe fund pregnant-seeking sensors in the malls...any sign of life in the tummy of a teenager, and straight to the CLINK for 9 months.

America: Going in the direction by the people for the people. Imprison teenage girls!

They already do it to teenage fathers, in Wales, anyway. In this case, they were both 12, and he got eight years!

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:11 am Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

Tiger Beer wrote:

They already do it to teenage fathers, in Wales, anyway. In this case, they were both 12, and he got eight years!

Put your reading glasses on!

Quote:

Michael Morgan, 19, of Church Street, Penrhiwceiber, was aged between 12 and 17 when he committed sexual offences against the girl who was aged between seven and 12.

When he was 12, he was raping a 7 year old.

When she was 12, she was being raped by a 17 year old.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:32 am Post subject:

eperdue4ad wrote:

Most importantly he's healthy and viable. Had a second-trimester ultrasound shown a severe anomaly that would cause him to live only a few painful hours after birth, I would still carry him. But not all women think the same.

I don't know what I would do. Thankfully, I've never been in that position, and carried two healthy little boys. But were I to find out that my helpless little child was doomed to die an agonising death after birth, I think I would rather have him/her gently put to rest before s/he could ever have an inkling of what it was to be alive, and then to die.

This woman wrote : "If she was to die I wanted it to be while she was still warm and cosy inside and not outside in the cold, gasping for air."

She chose a gentler death for her child, protecting her little girl from pain and suffering. She protected her little girl the best way she could. I respect that. I don't know what I would do, I guess there would be other things to consider that I do not know of. But I understand this choice, and would probably make it. Have my baby slip out of life as gently as I could, without the terrible trauma of birth followed by a hopeless fight for a life s/he could never have.

Quote:

The next day the doctor told us it was likely our little girl had a form of skeletal dysplasia "incompatible with life." I saw that the radiologist wrote "telephone receiver shape femurs" on the referral, and I google searched it when I got home. I studied developmental disabilities in university and I knew that there were lots of forms of skeletal dysplasia, some of which are not very limiting at all. But my heart sank when the only name that came up was Thanatophoric Dysplasia - death-bringing failure of growth. Thanatophoric dysplasia is only one amino acid difference from achondroplasia, a form of dwarfism with a normal quality of life. One amino acid. I couldn't look any more. We stayed up all night crying, with her moving and kicking all the while. How could a baby who kicks so much be so sick?

The next day the geneticist confirmed our fears. Yes, our little girl had this horrible condition. She had stunted skeletal growth with short arms and legs, a flattened spine, and a ribcage that would not grow to accommodate her lungs. She would die within hours, days, or weeks after birth from respiratory failure. Then came the dreaded choice. Carry to term and watch her die; run more tests to confirm the diagnosis, induce labor and then watch her die; do a D&C; or induce labor now.

Of course we loved her so very much, we didn't want her to suffer. My partner wanted more tests but I knew if we waited much longer she could be born alive, like a premature baby. I didn't want that. If she was to die I wanted it to be while she was still warm and cosy inside and not outside in the cold, gasping for air. So we chose to induce right away, the next day. It was all happening so fast. That night I was conscious of everything being the last time. The last time I wear maternity clothes, the last time I sing to her, the last time I feel her kicks, the last time she sleeps peacefully. I stayed up most of the night singing to her and telling her that I loved her and I was sorry. There just aren't enough sad songs.

In retrospect I'm glad I had the chance to say goodbye like that. If it would have been a miscarriage I wouldn't have had that chance. I'm also glad I went through labor. I needed that goodbye to be real and painful. I needed to take on the pain myself so that she wouldn't have to.

The next day was awful. They did an amnio in the morning for the genetics people. When they did the ultrasound to place the needle, I wish I would have asked to see her one last time. Until the needle went in, it felt like it was all a bad dream... how could this really be happening when we wanted this baby so much? There were pictures of George Clooney on the ceiling. I cried so hard I thought I would choke. They used cytotec to induce me, and it took about 8 or 9 hours. The very last kick I felt at about 11:30 while they were taking blood. I kept trying to feel her all day, but there was nothing.

The labor wasn't so bad. Not because of the morphine, or because she was so small, but because the sadness was so much worse. When it was time to push I just wasn't ready for her to leave me and I couldn't do it. All day I felt like I was on a train going to a dangerous place and I couldn't get off. I just wanted to take it all back, to stop everything and go back to the way things were. But I had to see it through, somehow. Between contractions I sang to her, one last time.

When she came, I thought I would die of sadness. I didn't know it was possible to be so sad. In that moment when she came out, it felt like all the hope I had in the world was leaving me too. Like I had lost everything all at once. The sudden emptiness was overwhelming. I cried much louder after the labor than during. They asked me if I wanted to see her, but I said no because I knew it would just be too much. I wanted to remember her the way that I pictured her. But they gave me her footprints. My partner said they looked just like mine. I wanted to tell her that I loved her and I was sorry one more time, but I knew she couldn't hear me any more.

This story came from a website called A Heartbreaking Choice and I suggest those calling late term abortion 'murder' should read these parents stories, before they judge. I read a few stories just now and I really cried. Terrible stories, by parents who loved and wanted their children, and then found out the devastating news that their beloved little babies suffered from terrible disease or abnormalities. Parents who had to face bringing their children fullterm into the world, only for their little child to die, or to bring a merciful end to a little life before it could ever begin.

I can't imagine how I would have coped if either my 2 darling boys had been afflicted with some of the things described on that site. I'm so lucky to have had two happy healthy little boys, and nothing but morning sickness and tired legs.

For many of these parents, George Tiller was the only one could help them in such a terrible awful time. He did a great service, knowing it was at great risk to himself, and I admire him greatly for that. The American Taleban have a lot to answer for.

Last edited by Big_Bird on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:37 am Post subject:

eperdue4ad wrote:

Yet their states of residence would not allow them to do anything besides carry to term and very publicly have a stillbirth.

Not neccessarily the states (as in the state governments) but rather the unwillingness of doctors in those states to go against the vocal--and obviously dangerous--minority who are vehemently against abortions regardless of the reason for them.

eperdue4ad

Joined: 22 May 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:13 am Post subject:

CentralCali wrote:

eperdue4ad wrote:

Yet their states of residence would not allow them to do anything besides carry to term and very publicly have a stillbirth.

Mmmm. The terrorism from the black/white crowd was doing its job even before Tiller was killed.

Big_Bird wrote:

I can't imagine how I would have coped if either my 2 darling boys had been afflicted with some of the things described on that site. I'm so lucky to have had two happy healthy little boys, and nothing but morning sickness and tired legs.

I had read the site you're talking about before all this happened, so I totally understand where you're coming from. All except for the "tired legs," I'd gladly swap for tired legs right now instead of my aching pelvis Laughing

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:19 am Post subject:

eperdue4ad wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Actually, I'm suddenly reminded of the strange pushing my second son would do in the last trimester. I don't know what the hell he was doing in there, but it almost felt like he was trying to stand up in there and push his feet out through my bum. It was very strange and a bit painful. Laughing

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:23 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

bacasper wrote:

Tiger Beer wrote:

They already do it to teenage fathers, in Wales, anyway. In this case, they were both 12, and he got eight years!

Put your reading glasses on!

Quote:

Michael Morgan, 19, of Church Street, Penrhiwceiber, was aged between 12 and 17 when he committed sexual offences against the girl who was aged between seven and 12.

When he was 12, he was raping a 7 year old.

When she was 12, she was being raped by a 17 year old.

No let me help you read:

Quote:

A TEENAGE father who raped a 12-year-old girl has been jailed for eight years.

Quote:

�He was at a very young age when he offended, he was 12,

You are getting confused by the legalese in the statute: if a person aged between 12 and 17 engages in a sexual act with someone between the ages of 7 and 12...
It does not necessarily mean they were continuously having sex for five years. There would have been a lot more than six counts.

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:04 am Post subject:

eperdue4ad wrote:

CentralCali wrote:

eperdue4ad wrote:

Yet their states of residence would not allow them to do anything besides carry to term and very publicly have a stillbirth.

Mmmm. The terrorism from the black/white crowd was doing its job even before Tiller was killed.

Right. Another doctor had been murdered.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:31 am Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

bacasper wrote:

Tiger Beer wrote:

They already do it to teenage fathers, in Wales, anyway. In this case, they were both 12, and he got eight years!

Put your reading glasses on!

Quote:

Michael Morgan, 19, of Church Street, Penrhiwceiber, was aged between 12 and 17 when he committed sexual offences against the girl who was aged between seven and 12.

When he was 12, he was raping a 7 year old.

When she was 12, she was being raped by a 17 year old.

No let me help you read:

Quote:

A TEENAGE father who raped a 12-year-old girl has been jailed for eight years.

Quote:

�He was at a very young age when he offended, he was 12,

No, bcasper - you made it sound as if they were both 12 years old at the same time. In fact, he was 5 years older, whenever he did it. And from the article you linked, it sounds like it was an ongoing situation, with the girl keeping quiet because she didn't think anyone was going to believe her.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:35 am Post subject:

This article looks at how law enforcement responds so poorly to attacks on abortion clinics

Dr. George Tiller Didn't Have to Die

Quote:

George Tiller did not have to die. He was assassinated while in church in Wichita, Kan., on Sunday, targeted for legally performing abortions. His death might have been prevented simply through enforcement of existing laws. His alleged killer was seen vandalizing a Kansas City clinic, Aid for Women, both the week before and the day before the murder, putting glue into its door locks. The manager of that clinic, who calls himself "Jeff Pederson" to protect his identity, told me he called the FBI and local police both times, but the vandal, the alleged killer Scott Roeder, was not arrested. Pederson had Roeder's first name and his license-plate number. He had images of him on the security video. He recognized him from previous protests.

Pederson said: "The clinic was closed on Memorial Day weekend. A worker tried to get in on Memorial Day but couldn't. The locks were Super-Glued. I went to the videotape and I saw the same guy on the videotape who had done it in 2000." Pederson called his contact at the FBI, agent Mark Colburn. "He [Colburn] said the videotape wouldn't be clear enough, and since I had touched the locks, I had ruined it with my DNA. So I bought new color video cameras."

On Saturday, May 30, the clinic manager said "Scott" struck again: "My head nurse calls me, 5:40 Saturday morning. She had come to prep for the patients. When she was coming back from the store she noticed the Taurus [Roeder's car]. She made her way to the back door. She saw him. He saw her and bolted. She followed him to his car and started talking to him.

"He tried to stand in front of the license plate, but she got it, 225 BAB. As she ran back to the clinic, he shouted �Baby killer!' at her."

Pederson called Colburn, reporting the second vandalism and letting him know he had better video. Pederson said Colburn told him, "The Johnson County prosecutor won't do anything until the grand jury convenes." The next day, Tiller was murdered, allegedly by Roeder.

etc

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