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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
What you describe is certainly a conspiracy. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, but you do assert that a conspiracy is taking place.
Why do you seem to believe conspiracy is synonymous with "untrue"? I'm not saying you're wrong about this, simply that, to be honest, I feel it's at best very remotely related to the topic of this thread. |
Yeah well... obviously it's disingenuous to treat the word "conspiracy" as anything other than a loaded term. It's a word used to brush ideas aside which are considered to have little or no evidence, and makes me out to be some kind of nutjob who believes in UFOs and supernatural phenomenon...
Anyway, I don't consider much of what I've posted to be a conspiracy; it just seems that way to people have no idea about the reality they are living in. The Federal Reserve is a privately owned banking cartel: fact. David Rockefeller is the patriarch of his family, which controls all supermajor oil companies, Citigroup and JP Morgan Chase: fact. Think tanks like the CFR (of which nearly everyone from both parties is a member, unbeknownst to the common public), Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg group exist and hold secret meetings: fact. David Rockefeller is the founder and/or chairman of nearly all these groups: fact.
Seriously, I'm just presenting the facts, straight up. Not much of a "conspiracy", if you simply take the time to confirm the evidence on your own (much has been provided for you in links in various threads). Some of what I post is admittedly conjecture, but most of it is me just connecting the dots, which are are factual (even though most people have no clue about it). |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Mises wrote:
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| Population growth in the EU, UK, Canada, AUS and United States is almost entirely coming from immigration. These nations would contract without mass immigration (less maybe the USA). Yet the article makes no reference to this. Instead, the people already living there are to have fewer babies, though they're already doing that. |
Yeah, the neo-Malthusians always seem to think that it's still 1967 and the whole world is India(or at least India as the neo-Malthusians viewed it in 1967, which was supposed to be totally wiped out by famine in 1975.) |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah well... obviously it's disingenuous to treat the word "conspiracy" as anything other than a loaded term. |
No, it's not. I'm sorry if my usage of the term bothers you; hurting your feelings isn't my intention. None the less, it's the correct term to use in this case, so I'm going to use it.
| visitorq wrote: |
| It's a word used to brush ideas aside which are considered to have little or no evidence ... |
So when someone is on trial for conspiracy to commit murder, you'd say the prosecution attourney is merely trying to brush aside their crime, for which he considers there to be little to no evidence? I don't feel that way.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Seriously, I'm just presenting the facts, straight up. Not much of a "conspiracy", if you simply take the time to confirm the evidence on your own (much has been provided for you in links in various threads). Some of what I post is admittedly conjecture, but most of it is me just connecting the dots, which are are factual (even though most people have no clue about it). |
Again, something being a conspiracy has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. If everything you've posted is factual, you've merely found a real conspiracy. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Population growth in the EU, UK, Canada, AUS and United States is almost entirely coming from immigration. These nations would contract without mass immigration (less maybe the USA). Yet the article makes no reference to this. Instead, the people already living there are to have fewer babies, though they're already doing that. |
I don't think this is an unreasonable point; it's definitely true that many people in the West all ready voluntarily limit themselves as the article suggests to 2 children or less (though in the vast majority of cases, I'm sure the environment has nothing to do with their choice). |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Great point, Mises. This is further evidence that the writer simply has an anti-Western agenda and probably couldn't give two hoots about the climate. He or she is simply a faithful leftist awaiting the socialist, multiculturalist utopia to be. Then, and only then, will we love one another, and Mother Earth, like we did a long, long time ago in a century far, far away - before the calamity of capitalism. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Wealthier, more developed, more educated countries have less babies. After Africa's developed to European standards the world will basically be at 'maximum population for current resource consumption'. Further growth will reduce available resources, and yes, imperil humans' future here.. Western population decline actually shows that legal limits on childbirth will be unnecessary. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Africa's development to European standards would be, I assume, on the back of a cheap carbon economy.
If the IPCC are right, by then the climate will be a fully-fledged catastrophe.
Africa doesn't have the infrastructure to make it big, anyway. Doing that requires democracy and markets as opposed to Islam, tyrants and socialism. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| This is further evidence that the writer simply has an anti-Western agenda and probably couldn't give two hoots about the climate. |
No, it isn't. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Babies have an intrinsic value that goes well beyond nebulous concerns for environmental sustainability. |
Why? He didn't have a solid answer for that. Do you? |
Babies are human life. They thus have intrinsic value. Thus starts every moral system that I know of. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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A baby that will never exist has no value. They're not talking about killing human life.
Anyway, the welfare of a child will reduce the more humans there are on the planet. Or what if you brought a baby into a world torn by global conflict over oil, or a planet that will provide the baby with a stunted, terrible existence; there's no intrinsic value in that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
A baby that will never exist has no value. They're not talking about killing human life.
Anyway, the welfare of a child will reduce the more humans there are on the planet. Or what if you brought a baby into a world torn by global conflict over oil, or a planet that will provide the baby with a stunted, terrible existence; there's no intrinsic value in that. |
There are many good reasons to forego having children at a specific point in time. I don't think nebulous environmental concerns are among them.
I won't even address your hypotheticals because they're hypotheticals: these conditions don't presently exist. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah well... obviously it's disingenuous to treat the word "conspiracy" as anything other than a loaded term. |
No, it's not. I'm sorry if my usage of the term bothers you; hurting your feelings isn't my intention. None the less, it's the correct term to use in this case, so I'm going to use it.
| visitorq wrote: |
| It's a word used to brush ideas aside which are considered to have little or no evidence ... |
So when someone is on trial for conspiracy to commit murder, you'd say the prosecution attourney is merely trying to brush aside their crime, for which he considers there to be little to no evidence? I don't feel that way.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Seriously, I'm just presenting the facts, straight up. Not much of a "conspiracy", if you simply take the time to confirm the evidence on your own (much has been provided for you in links in various threads). Some of what I post is admittedly conjecture, but most of it is me just connecting the dots, which are are factual (even though most people have no clue about it). |
Again, something being a conspiracy has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. If everything you've posted is factual, you've merely found a real conspiracy. |
Ok, I thought about it, you make a fair point, and it is the correct word. However, I still can't help but feel it connotes a lack of evidence and/or credibility. Most likely because of pairing with the other word "theory". |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Africa's development to European standards would be, I assume, on the back of a cheap carbon economy.
If the IPCC are right, by then the climate will be a fully-fledged catastrophe.
Africa doesn't have the infrastructure to make it big, anyway. Doing that requires democracy and markets as opposed to Islam, tyrants and socialism. |
You are aware that the US is one of the most "socialist" countries ever, right? If you disagree, then what do you call corporate welfare and the multi-trillion dollar bailouts our traitor gov't is doling out do the banks at our expense? Corporatism and socialism are two sides of the same coin.
I'm all for real capitalism (namely the kind with a permanent, fixed money supply and free market competition), but no such thing exists in the West anymore. We've replaced real capitalism with ponzi economics and all the problems it entails. The reason Africa and other parts of the world is so undeveloped is because they are slaves to interest paid on permanent debt to the international banking cartel (IMF). Get rid of the fractional-reserve banking ponzi scheme, the fake unbacked fiat monopoly money (and the interest those scammers derive out of nothing), and replace it with real free market capitalism, and things would improve drastically. In other words, abolish the Fed. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Ok, I thought about it, you make a fair point, and it is the correct word. However, I still can't help but feel it connotes a lack of evidence and/or credibility. Most likely because of pairing with the other word "theory". |
If you look at my old thread, What is a conspiracy theorist?, you will see that some of those who hurl that epithet insist on a definition which is absurd, i.e. something other than the combination of standard dictionary definitions of "conspiracy" and "theorist," which is what I insist it is.
Conspiracies happen all the time, they are all around us, and, as Fox has pointed out, they make up a significant part of our system of jurisprudence. Everybody believes in some conspiracies. The epithet hurlers hate to admit that, and some even insist that if you believe a group of powerful people act in concert to maintain or enhance their power, then you necessarily also believe that subterranean reptilians are controlling people's thoughts via radio waves from space. It is absurd.
Don't give in to their language mangling. Keep communication clear, and use words as defined in the dictionary. |
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weebil
Joined: 24 May 2009
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