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Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| typo wrote: |
| knee-highs wrote: |
Only the mule-class seems obsessed with where they stand in relation to others.
The real upper-crust don't bother to compare, and the poor are too busy collecting cardboard to think about it. |
That's not true and you should know better, rather that offer baseless speculation. Pick up any piece of investigative journalism on scams targeting the ultra wealthy (Vanity Fair's piece on the recent Madoff scandal comes to mind) and you'll see that the ultra wealthy absolutely obsessed with where they stand. Loads of comments in that article about how this person has "a few bucks" (meaning a few hundred millions) or this person lost a buck or two on a trade (meaning lost a million or two). Comparison is the engine for these folks.
Don't be deluded to think that they're not engaged in such--shall I say, common?-- behavior. |
I agree with you.
Also its obviously misleading that OP said "It makes all the difference to Koreans which social level you're from, yet we waegs pretend like it doesn't matter at all."
All I know is all human beings care their social class, but there are the moments that you don't see it (eg. you spend most of time with people who are very similar with yourself), and there are also the moments you are shocked by the big differences between you and someone else (eg. you fall in love with someone that is way out of your league).
My grandparents were both farmers, Zero education
My parents were both working-class, middle school education
I have managed to swicthed my social class to a much higher level, and I am thinking getting it higher more.
Interestingly, this morning I just read an article talking about Edward kennedy and those "royal families" in America... |
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knee-highs
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Location: yes
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| typo wrote: |
| knee-highs wrote: |
Only the mule-class seems obsessed with where they stand in relation to others.
The real upper-crust don't bother to compare, and the poor are too busy collecting cardboard to think about it. |
That's not true and you should know better, rather that offer baseless speculation. Pick up any piece of investigative journalism on scams targeting the ultra wealthy (Vanity Fair's piece on the recent Madoff scandal comes to mind) and you'll see that the ultra wealthy absolutely obsessed with where they stand. Loads of comments in that article about how this person has "a few bucks" (meaning a few hundred millions) or this person lost a buck or two on a trade (meaning lost a million or two). Comparison is the engine for these folks.
Don't be deluded to think that they're not engaged in such--shall I say, common?-- behavior. |
baseless speculation you say? ...And what makes my personal observations any different than your flippant comments spouting off about the media. The media have extremely limited access to the real world of the upper-class.
...a half dozen Paris Hilton wannabees and a few lonely old widows is hardly a slice of the upper crust.
People magazine and Vanity Fair are nothing more than pablum for the middle-class. Investigative journalism? ...c'mon. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:00 am Post subject: |
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I think one of the BIG differences between those that have wealth and those that don't (Or were raised in a wealthy family) is how they identify 'rich'. Those that don't tend to look at things like house size, salary, cars, clothes, etc. Those that do look at things in terms of assets and property/business ownership, especially things that generate passive income.
I've also noticed that this definition of wealth transcends the actualy amount of money or outward 'richness' people have. Hence why you'll see a lot of businessmen talking, some in suits and driving a Buick, some in jeans and driving a Ranger/Escort wagon- but they tend to have one thing in common- they own/run a company.
My former store owner in the states, Korean, said one of the things he liked the most about America was that wealthy people didn't have to be flashy with their money, while his wife demanded a Lexus and the ubiquitous Louis Vuitton purse to match the other Koreans. They'd drive pickups and dress in the same clothes they had had since college but they were serious when it came to money. Usually their 'flash' money was spent on their hobby- i.e. flying, boating, fishing, vacationing, antiques, etc. I always got a kick of watching him drive up in one of the beatup store pickups, him with this big grin, his wife trying to hide her face. "Uh good gas mileagee, cheap insurance, and some uh utilitee." When he finally caved and bought the Lexus he was cranky and cutting corners for the next 6 months. |
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typo
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| knee-highs wrote: |
| typo wrote: |
| knee-highs wrote: |
Only the mule-class seems obsessed with where they stand in relation to others.
The real upper-crust don't bother to compare, and the poor are too busy collecting cardboard to think about it. |
That's not true and you should know better, rather that offer baseless speculation. Pick up any piece of investigative journalism on scams targeting the ultra wealthy (Vanity Fair's piece on the recent Madoff scandal comes to mind) and you'll see that the ultra wealthy absolutely obsessed with where they stand. Loads of comments in that article about how this person has "a few bucks" (meaning a few hundred millions) or this person lost a buck or two on a trade (meaning lost a million or two). Comparison is the engine for these folks.
Don't be deluded to think that they're not engaged in such--shall I say, common?-- behavior. |
baseless speculation you say? ...And what makes my personal observations any different than your flippant comments spouting off about the media. The media have extremely limited access to the real world of the upper-class.
...a half dozen Paris Hilton wannabees and a few lonely old widows is hardly a slice of the upper crust.
People magazine and Vanity Fair are nothing more than pablum for the middle-class. Investigative journalism? ...c'mon. |
Um, hi. You're retarded and woefully ignorant. People and Vanity Fair aren't even on the same spectrum. For your information, since you desperately need it, VF has published breakthroughs in reporting on par with WaPo's deepthroat. Specifically, the VF broke the Abu Ghraib scandal.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/bear_stearns200808
here's a link to "investigative journalism" on bear stearns. VF's political journalism is a direct competitor to the New Yorker, the Atlantic, Harper's, and Foreign Policy. Jesus christ, pick up a newspaper or something.
And, darling, even if it were true, "extremely limited access" is better than no access and all. But here's a link to VF's article re: Madoff scandal. Investigative journalists are paid premium because they do have access. That's why these journals and select newspapers "break the news" not simply "report" the news, like what happens on your local tv station at home.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/06/madoff200906
So yes. You are baselessly speculating. I am not. I guess the reason why your comment is so infuriating is the fact that this community is supposed to be college educated but you can't differentiate between reporting news and breaking news, and you certainly (obviously) couldn't tell the difference between a ModEditing celebrity gossip weekend rag like People or US or whatever from the New Yorker or Vanity Fair.
Where do you think information about Abu Ghraib, the White House scandals, anything of that nature ever comes to the surface? Hey, guess what? Investigative journalism! Way to show your ignorance, chump.
By the way, I'm all for bashing journalism of other stripes, particularly the white house press corps (of all nations, not just american) of the past 10 years. But they're also not investigative journalists. |
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knee-highs
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Location: yes
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| typo wrote: |
| knee-highs wrote: |
| typo wrote: |
| knee-highs wrote: |
Only the mule-class seems obsessed with where they stand in relation to others.
The real upper-crust don't bother to compare, and the poor are too busy collecting cardboard to think about it. |
That's not true and you should know better, rather that offer baseless speculation. Pick up any piece of investigative journalism on scams targeting the ultra wealthy (Vanity Fair's piece on the recent Madoff scandal comes to mind) and you'll see that the ultra wealthy absolutely obsessed with where they stand. Loads of comments in that article about how this person has "a few bucks" (meaning a few hundred millions) or this person lost a buck or two on a trade (meaning lost a million or two). Comparison is the engine for these folks.
Don't be deluded to think that they're not engaged in such--shall I say, common?-- behavior. |
baseless speculation you say? ...And what makes my personal observations any different than your flippant comments spouting off about the media. The media have extremely limited access to the real world of the upper-class.
...a half dozen Paris Hilton wannabees and a few lonely old widows is hardly a slice of the upper crust.
People magazine and Vanity Fair are nothing more than pablum for the middle-class. Investigative journalism? ...c'mon. |
Um, hi. You're retarded and woefully ignorant. People and Vanity Fair aren't even on the same spectrum. For your information, since you desperately need it, VF has published breakthroughs in reporting on par with WaPo's deepthroat. Specifically, the VF broke the Abu Ghraib scandal.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/bear_stearns200808
here's a link to "investigative journalism" on bear stearns. VF's political journalism is a direct competitor to the New Yorker, the Atlantic, Harper's, and Foreign Policy. Jesus christ, pick up a newspaper or something.
And, darling, even if it were true, "extremely limited access" is better than no access and all. But here's a link to VF's article re: Madoff scandal. Investigative journalists are paid premium because they do have access. That's why these journals and select newspapers "break the news" not simply "report" the news, like what happens on your local tv station at home.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/06/madoff200906
So yes. You are baselessly speculating. I am not. I guess the reason why your comment is so infuriating is the fact that this community is supposed to be college educated but you can't differentiate between reporting news and breaking news, and you certainly (obviously) couldn't tell the difference between a ModEditing celebrity gossip weekend rag like People or US or whatever from the New Yorker or Vanity Fair.
Where do you think information about Abu Ghraib, the White House scandals, anything of that nature ever comes to the surface? Hey, guess what? Investigative journalism! Way to show your ignorance, chump.
By the way, I'm all for bashing journalism of other stripes, particularly the white house press corps (of all nations, not just american) of the past 10 years. But they're also not investigative journalists. |
...call me names if you wish. ad hominem attacks surely prove your point.
...i stand by my original point: the upper crust simply don't care about these frivolous comparisons. a few examples hardly represent the majority. |
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typo
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:40 am Post subject: |
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I linked you to two 9000 word pieces of investigative journalism and all you got from my post were ad hominem attacks?
Wallow in your ignorance, I guess. It just strikes me as a bit sad. |
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knee-highs
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Location: yes
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| typo wrote: |
I linked you to two 9000 word pieces of investigative journalism and all you got from my post were ad hominem attacks?
Wallow in your ignorance, I guess. It just strikes me as a bit sad. |
you are the one hurling insults.... that is truly sad; as is your delusion that you know something about the upper-crust. |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I think one of the BIG differences between those that have wealth and those that don't (Or were raised in a wealthy family) is how they identify 'rich'. Those that don't tend to look at things like house size, salary, cars, clothes, etc. Those that do look at things in terms of assets and property/business ownership, especially things that generate passive income.
I've also noticed that this definition of wealth transcends the actualy amount of money or outward 'richness' people have. Hence why you'll see a lot of businessmen talking, some in suits and driving a Buick, some in jeans and driving a Ranger/Escort wagon- but they tend to have one thing in common- they own/run a company.
My former store owner in the states, Korean, said one of the things he liked the most about America was that wealthy people didn't have to be flashy with their money, while his wife demanded a Lexus and the ubiquitous Louis Vuitton purse to match the other Koreans. They'd drive pickups and dress in the same clothes they had had since college but they were serious when it came to money. Usually their 'flash' money was spent on their hobby- i.e. flying, boating, fishing, vacationing, antiques, etc. I always got a kick of watching him drive up in one of the beatup store pickups, him with this big grin, his wife trying to hide her face. "Uh good gas mileagee, cheap insurance, and some uh utilitee." When he finally caved and bought the Lexus he was cranky and cutting corners for the next 6 months. |
The definition of the upper class and their characteristics can vary so much it can be very confusing. Traditionally European upper class was something that took generations to achieve and didn't have much to do with your actual wealth. If your family had an estate which paid a decent pension you could very well be upper class even though the local merchant were 3 times richer and was only in the middle class. In america this is of course very different since the social hierarchy is much younger and what would traditionally is considered new money is easier accepted as upper class.
I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but then the real question comes. How is the upper class in Korea different from the upper class in the west? Koreans in general like to flash their wealth much more, but is this the upper class or is it the middle class trying to be perceived as upper class? It is easy to call the Koreans spending habits vulgar, but it might just be my lack of cultural understanding. Because of the Japanese invasion I guess old money equal traitors since they would cooperate with the Japanese, which surely should make new money more acceptable. Is there an upper class which outlived the invasion?
I'm genuinely curious about these questions since I've never done much study about it and would like to learn more about the society I live in. My guess is that scholars might have been the upper class since they have been so important in Korean society, but now that scholars are relatively poor I can't imagine this being the case for long. What are your thoughts on the matter? |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'm from low-income, low class, working class and minimum wage people, raised in inner-city communities. But, we work, and have always worked - hard. I worked myself up from the worst city public schools to the best private, ivy-league and top-tiered schools through my sheer determination to get an education for myself. I am the first college-educated person in my family.
I can hold my own anywhere, from the worst ghettos to the best ivy-league classrooms, and I'm proud of all of it. |
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knee-highs
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Location: yes
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| typo wrote: |
I linked you to two 9000 word pieces of investigative journalism and all you got from my post were ad hominem attacks?
Wallow in your ignorance, I guess. It just strikes me as a bit sad. |
Notwithstanding your ad hominem attacks I had a little look and Vanity Fair certainly seems to have a finger on the pulse of the upper-crust...not.
http://gawker.com/5349535/levi-johnston-wrote-a-piece-for-the-october-vanity-fair-everybody |
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typo
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:18 am Post subject: |
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You're totally right. What was I thinking, Vanity Fair reporting on a woman set to be the second most powerful person in the world, and the most powerful woman in politics.
I gave up on trying to convince you because you're an idiot. I linked to two specific examples of the kind of reporting VF is known for, and noted one of the major breakthroughs in Iraqi war reporting. Good on you, you pseudointellectual. |
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Samurai Blur
Joined: 20 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| UknowsI wrote: |
I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but then the real question comes. How is the upper class in Korea different from the upper class in the west? Koreans in general like to flash their wealth much more, but is this the upper class or is it the middle class trying to be perceived as upper class? It is easy to call the Koreans spending habits vulgar, but it might just be my lack of cultural understanding. Because of the Japanese invasion I guess old money equal traitors since they would cooperate with the Japanese, which surely should make new money more acceptable. Is there an upper class which outlived the invasion? |
That is usually how it seems when we look at the Korean culture. People running from DG to Coach and then to a LV store buying up all the hand bags they see and then running to show it off, making a special note to ensure everyone knows how much they paid for it. It's not uncommon in a few of the Asian cultures. I've seen Chinese girls brag about eevrything from the price of shoes to how much their husband to be paid for the engagement ring on their finger. My girlfriend is Korean, and even though her family is a non struggling, middle class family, she still wants to shop all the time, swooning over the things she can't afford and never being satisfied with what she has. She would buy a new $500 Coach purse every week if her pocketbook permitted it. So, I can see exactly what you're talking about. It stays with her even though she has been going to school here in the states almost two years now (although it isn't near as bad as it was three years ago). On the other hand, when she lived in the dorms last year she had a Korean roommate, who was a friend from her exchange program back in high school. This girl comes from upper class. Her parents agreed to pay for whatever school she wanted to go to, (even if it was UT Austin) after junior college, but she is soooooo cheap! She would try to convince my girlfriend to throw in half on appliances like a fridge and toaster, microwave etc. and then want to be able to just keep it all to herself when they went to uni (since they went at different times, to different places) without paying for her half of them. So of course my girl said no, and bought her own stuff, so her roommate pouted about it. Cheap and stingy.
I can't say it's the whole culture, of course, that is one way or the other, but it's not hard to find these two mentalities from the Korean culture. I kind of understand that the country was in poverty so long, not that they are building up to modernism so quickly, there are people that just go bananas and spend spend spend. What I don't understand is why someone in the upper class would be so cheap, and try to use the people around them to save their own money.
In short, the purpose of this originally was to say that I think it's the middle class pretending to be upper class more so than the upper class that's acting like, "Hey look at me and the expensive stuff I can afford! Look at all the money I have!!!!" |
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OnTheOtherSide
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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It's very easy for a lower class person to masquerade as high class. The whole game is stupid.
That's how that whole ska style started of punks wearing the black suits and ties. They were wearing the suits to make fun of the high class and imitate them.
If you come from the upper classes. You must be exterminated. Kill em all and steal their cash..... |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I was raised middle class in the country by a school teacher mother and a mechanic father. However, since birth I have always been different, of a more aristocratic style. Even growing up in the sticks, people would ask in a heavy southern accent, "Why don't you be talkin' like we do?" to which I would answer with a blank American accent, "Have you heard yourself lately?" |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Triban wrote: |
| I was raised middle class in the country by a school teacher mother and a mechanic father. However, since birth I have always been different, of a more aristocratic style. Even growing up in the sticks, people would ask in a heavy southern accent, "Why don't you be talkin' like we do?" to which I would answer with a blank American accent, "Have you heard yourself lately?" |
Even though there often is a correlation, upper class does not equal snob, and snob does not equal upper class.
I'm not saying this applies to you... just a general advice.
Last edited by UknowsI on Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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