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shamham
Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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 Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| shamham wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
Shamham,
You say that there is a more positive attitude toward reporting in the West...
You say women feel more empowered in the West... |
Actually I said neither of these things in my post. I was trying to explain why reporting is looked on as important regardless of whether or not it has an immediate effect on lowering incidences of rape. I repeated some opinions from my mother on the subject of reporting in the west but - ahhh... never mind. I was trying to steer it in a constructive direction, you took the same turn as always.
Back to troll status with you, and a starvation diet from me (metaphorically speaking, of course, for anyone who enjoys quoting out of context...) |
in my defence, your post was a long rambling one and at times off topic. No one is forcing you to respond to my posts. I addressed the issues you raised. |
So basically you posted, attributing statements to me that you weren't even certain I'd made...
Let's remember this as the moment you admitted you were a troll. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
You say women feel more empowered in the West but the stats shows wide variation among some western countries. For example, Great Britain, a non-Confucian nation, I might add Calicoe, has terrible reporting stats: (page 35)
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It is currently estimated that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police . A number of studies have explored the reasons for not reporting and a wide range has been documented:
fear of being disbelieved;
fear of blame or judgement;
distrust of the police, courts or the legal process;
fear of family and friends knowing or of public disclosure;
fear of further attack or intimidation... |
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Just because rape report percentages are also low in a non-Confucian country doesn't mean that Confucian values are not at fault here. I'd argue that Confucian values in Korea are a significant factor in making women who are raped afraid to report it. |
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shamham
Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
You say women feel more empowered in the West but the stats shows wide variation among some western countries. For example, Great Britain, a non-Confucian nation, I might add Calicoe, has terrible reporting stats: (page 35)
| Quote: |
It is currently estimated that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police . A number of studies have explored the reasons for not reporting and a wide range has been documented:
fear of being disbelieved;
fear of blame or judgement;
distrust of the police, courts or the legal process;
fear of family and friends knowing or of public disclosure;
fear of further attack or intimidation... |
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Just because rape report percentages are also low in a non-Confucian country doesn't mean that Confucian values are not at fault here. I'd argue that Confucian values in Korea are a significant factor in making women who are raped afraid to report it. |
Very good point. It's different in different countries. No Confucianism in the Middle-East, for example, but they're VERY afraid of reporting rape in some countries there, due to an entirely different ideology. India has a terrible report percentage for their own reasons. I've certainly never considered the USA report percentage to be at all acceptable, and the reasons for it being that way are different than they would be in Korea.
In Korea, Confucianism would be a pretty inarguable contributing factor. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
You say women feel more empowered in the West but the stats shows wide variation among some western countries. For example, Great Britain, a non-Confucian nation, I might add Calicoe, has terrible reporting stats: (page 35)
| Quote: |
It is currently estimated that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police . A number of studies have explored the reasons for not reporting and a wide range has been documented:
fear of being disbelieved;
fear of blame or judgement;
distrust of the police, courts or the legal process;
fear of family and friends knowing or of public disclosure;
fear of further attack or intimidation... |
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Just because rape report percentages are also low in a non-Confucian country doesn't mean that Confucian values are not at fault here. I'd argue that Confucian values in Korea are a significant factor in making women who are raped afraid to report it. |
Well, correlation does not equal causation. You're stepping into a logical fallacy here. Did Judaism cause the Jews to become slaves? Did Christianity cause slavery? Can we lay the blame for India�s caste system at Hinduism�s door? I'd say NO. And Confucianism can not be blamed for this fear in Korea for reporting rapes.
I'd say there are other reasons that have more to do with economics and behavioral science rather than Confucianism. Actually, I could just as well make an argument that it's actually greater adherence to Confucianism that is the reason for increase in reporting in Korea today.
Also, people tend to blame all the bad on Confucianism and attribute nothing good to it. For example, Korea's economic success is attributed to only the West when obviously it�s the Confucian based societies that are economically highly successful today. We tend to cherry pick what we attribute causation to depending upon on the conclusion we want to arrive at. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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What 'people tend to do' is irrelevant. Hierarchical Confucianism works in mono ethnic societies, keeping crime down and workers docile. This is a recipe for a prosperous society. However, Confucianism also breeds misogyny, especially the extreme Korean iteration of it.
Room salons are illegal for women to go to in Korea, I know this because a Korean friend told me this. When I asked her why, her response was "공자". It's not as if we're pulling this out of our collective asses, Koreans say the same thing.
All societies are discriminatory towards women, the difference is that Korea codifies this in its laws and traditions and treats it as a cultural privilege. |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Look Komeritroll, you are too dense to get it.
Forget your smarmy correlation doesn't equal causation nonsense. Sounds good, but it just doesn't fit the debate. You always miss the point in such a laughable and massive way.
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| In Korea, Confucianism would be a pretty inarguable contributing factor. |
Get it?
We are not comparing oranges to apples. We are not comparing contributing factors in Britain to contributing factors in Korea and judging which are right or wrong.
We are looking at KOREA. Get it? And people are saying they bet confucianism is a large contributing factor in KOREA. Lol I hate having to spell out the obvious, but come on ffs....
Try it, just ry and evaluate the above quote without referencing to another single country, go on - try it. |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Someone went quiet all of a sudden. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
| What 'people tend to do' is irrelevant. Hierarchical Confucianism works in mono ethnic societies, |
bingo! Korea is a mono ethnic society so Confucianism does make sense and is logical which contradicts the "Koreans are illogical" rants we see so often. The system works here in Korea. As for your "hierarchical" point, name me one society on planet earth that doesn't have some sort of hierarchy. Great Britain for example still has a Queen, lol. Yes, GB is an economic meritocracy but socially the aristocracy has combined with money to make a very hierarchical society.
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| keeping crime down and workers docile. |
Korean workers do not have a reputation for docility, in fact they're famous worldwide for demonstrating for better treatment. I see your point though that there is loyalty and an ethic of hard work but these are as you say yourself essential for any company or society to succeed.
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| This is a recipe for a prosperous society. However, Confucianism also breeds misogyny, especially the extreme Korean iteration of it. |
This is like blaming Christianity for prostitution. Confucianism promotes respect for women. The treatment of women in any society depends on economics. Korea is a liberal democratic capitalistic society and women's right have risen as Korea develops it economy.
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| Room salons are illegal for women to go to in Korea, I know this because a Korean friend told me this. When I asked her why, her response was "공자". It's not as if we're pulling this out of our collective asses, Koreans say the same thing. |
And voila, here you are blaming Confucianism for room salons.
I always find it funny how Westerners will quote a Korean as an irrefutable source when said Korean supports the Westerner's opinion but in all other situations are held in utter contempt. No, just because a Korean told you this does not make it true. Confucianism or 공자, (Confucius) has nothing to do with room salons and it is not illegal for a woman to go to a room salon.
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| All societies are discriminatory towards women, the difference is that Korea codifies this in its laws and traditions and treats it as a cultural privilege. |
I disagree. They don't seem that different actually. I've already posted about how in Great Britain, the US and other common law countries you actually have laws on the books giving men a "marital exclusion" for rape, so where is the difference?
Again, calling Korea a Confucian culture is absurd. Korea is actually more a liberal democratic capitalistic society. Yes, there are Confucian elements to Korean society but the Yi Dynasty no longer exists in Korea.
Most confucian cultural elements actually are beneficial to Korea and have helped make Korea and other Confucian influenced societies become very successful. Actually, here should be more confucianism elsewhere as well. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
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| What 'people tend to do' is irrelevant. Hierarchical Confucianism works in mono ethnic societies, |
bingo! Korea is a mono ethnic society so Confucianism does make sense and is logical which contradicts the "Koreans are illogical" rants we see so often. The system works here in Korea. As for your "hierarchical" point, name me one society on planet earth that doesn't have some sort of hierarchy. |
I didn't' say that Korea was the only hierarchical society in the world, but it's hierarchical manifestations are much stronger and pervasive. Why can't you stay on point instead of throwing a bunch of red herrings out? I'm pointing out the traits of Korea. Obfuscation is a nice trick but ineffective.
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Great Britain for example still has a Queen, lol. Yes, GB is an economic meritocracy but socially the aristocracy has combined with money to make a very hierarchical society. |
lol!
No they haven't. The aristocracy has been pretty much overshadowed by the burgher class since the 17th Century, ever since they killed the king in 1648 and forced the Bill of Rights in 1688.
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This is like blaming Christianity for prostitution.
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Not even close. Confucianism states the wife is below the husband right within the basic idea of the philosophy, the Five Relationships. It's in black and white. The Ten Commandments expressly forbid adultery. That's pretty cut and dry. I don't remember a commandment sanctifying whoremongering. An incredibly obvious difference.
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| Confucianism or 공자, (Confucius) has nothing to do with room salons and it is not illegal for a woman to go to a room salon. |
Confucius is why women cannot go to room salons aimed at female clientele, ie where they get it on. I have had this confirmed by more than one person. If it not a law it is perceived to be one, which is not as bad but interesting to note.
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| All societies are discriminatory towards women, the difference is that Korea codifies this in its laws and traditions and treats it as a cultural privilege. |
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I disagree. They don't seem that different actually. I've already posted about how in Great Britain, the US and other common law countries you actually have laws on the books giving men a "marital exclusion" for rape, so where is the difference? |
It is illegal for a woman to smoke outdoors in Korea. It is not enforced often, but still happens. My friend's GF got a 50k ticket for smoking outdoors. In Hongdae of all places. That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of in my life.
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Again, calling Korea a Confucian culture is absurd. Korea is actually more a liberal democratic capitalistic society. Yes, there are Confucian elements to Korean society but the Yi Dynasty no longer exists in Korea.
Most confucian cultural elements actually are beneficial to Korea and have helped make Korea and other Confucian influenced societies become very successful. Actually, here should be more confucianism elsewhere as well. |
What a convenient little argument! Korea is not a Confucian culture and cannot be criticized as such, but nonetheless most positives in Korea come from Confucianism. Is that about right?
That is a flat out ridiculous train of logic, probably one for the ages. You should seriously go back and write this paragraph again. I'm done with you and your silliness. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What 'people tend to do' is irrelevant. Hierarchical Confucianism works in mono ethnic societies, |
bingo! Korea is a mono ethnic society so Confucianism does make sense and is logical which contradicts the "Koreans are illogical" rants we see so often. The system works here in Korea. As for your "hierarchical" point, name me one society on planet earth that doesn't have some sort of hierarchy. |
I didn't' say that Korea was the only hierarchical society in the world, but it's hierarchical manifestations are much stronger and pervasive. Why can't you stay on point instead of throwing a bunch of red herrings out? I'm pointing out the traits of Korea. Obfuscation is a nice trick but ineffective. |
You're saying that Korean hierarchy is somehow special and I am disagreeing with that. There's no obfuscation there.
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Great Britain for example still has a Queen, lol. Yes, GB is an economic meritocracy but socially the aristocracy has combined with money to make a very hierarchical society. |
lol!
No they haven't. The aristocracy has been pretty much overshadowed by the burgher class since the 17th Century, ever since they killed the king in 1648 and forced the Bill of Rights in 1688. |
They still have princess, Marquess/Marchioness, Earl/Countess, Viscount/Viscountess, Baron/Baroness, etc., and dukes there, don't they? 
The order of precedence in British royalty and aristocracy is as follows, from highest to lowest:
* King/Queen
* Prince/Princess
* Duke/Duchess
* Marquess/Marchioness
* Earl/Countess
* Viscount/Viscountess
* Baron/Baroness
* Baronet
* Knight/Dame
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This is like blaming Christianity for prostitution.
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Not even close. Confucianism states the wife is below the husband right within the basic idea of the philosophy, the Five Relationships. It's in black and white. The Ten Commandments expressly forbid adultery. That's pretty cut and dry. I don't remember a commandment sanctifying whoremongering. An incredibly obvious difference. |
the "five relationships"? LOL. Korea has a constitution and a Civil Law form of legal system which determines the legal relationship between husband and wife. Your rant about *beep* mongering and the 10 commandments is laughable.
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| Confucianism or 공자, (Confucius) has nothing to do with room salons and it is not illegal for a woman to go to a room salon. |
Confucius is why women cannot go to room salons aimed at female clientele, ie where they get it on. I have had this confirmed by more than one person. If it not a law it is perceived to be one, which is not as bad but interesting to note. |
Yeah, how terrible, no room salons for women. Confucianism is so bad. (sarcasm)
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It is illegal for a woman to smoke outdoors in Korea. It is not enforced often, but still happens. My friend's GF got a 50k ticket for smoking outdoors. In Hongdae of all places. That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of in my life.
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It's not illegal for a women to smoke outside. It's merely a Korean social shibboleth that women generally don't. But I've seen this change over the years here. Your friend's GF was probably fined for throwing her cig butt on the street which they've been cracking down on.
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Again, calling Korea a Confucian culture is absurd. Korea is actually more a liberal democratic capitalistic society. Yes, there are Confucian elements to Korean society but the Yi Dynasty no longer exists in Korea.
Most confucian cultural elements actually are beneficial to Korea and have helped make Korea and other Confucian influenced societies become very successful. Actually, here should be more Confucianism elsewhere as well. |
What a convenient little argument! Korea is not a Confucian culture and cannot be criticized as such, but nonetheless most positives in Korea come from Confucianism. Is that about right? That is a flat out ridiculous train of logic, probably one for the ages. You should seriously go back and write this paragraph again. I'm done with you and your silliness. |
Westerners do the same when they attribute all of Korea's success to the west and all of Korea's not so successful aspects to Korean culture. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
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What a convenient little argument! Korea is not a Confucian culture and cannot be criticized as such, but nonetheless most positives in Korea come from Confucianism. Is that about right? That is a flat out ridiculous train of logic, probably one for the ages. You should seriously go back and write this paragraph again. I'm done with you and your silliness. |
Westerners do the same when they attribute all of Korea's success to the west and all of Korea's not so successful aspects to Korean culture. |
Oh man, you really don't get it. That's your response? That's funny.
They (whoever these mythical "Westerners" are) are wrong, just like you are wrong. So when "they" post, everyone will know "they" are wrong, and when YOU post, everyone knows that YOU are wrong. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:04 am Post subject: |
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What is so funny about Old Gil's post below is he says this is the Korea Job Discussion Forum, as if that means that no discussion of the West is allowed, which it does not, and then he goes right ahead and starts to compare the West to Korea. Westerners tend to compare the West to Korea when they think it's favorable to the West but when I step in and say hold on now what you're spinning is a absurd fairytale that's when the "no this is the Korean job board" whining starts.
| Old Gil wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
EDIT- You make some fair points at times. But the tone of a lot of your posts is pretty condescending towards Koreans. That and the 'konglish' posts remind me a lot of backhand's.
Dude, if you can dish it out, don't be afraid to take it. Look its pretty silly to watch posters complain about the 'but in the west' stuff while criticizing Koreans for being all defensive and what not. |
I don't like the widespread Korean mindset of "it's not our fault", it's childish and worth of condescension. This is not to say that all Koreans think like this, but those that DO think so are silly people, just like there are tons of silly people in America with silly thoughts resulting specifically from American cultural values.
But the title in the top of my browser says "Korean Job Discussion Forums".
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Yes we are more similar to the Koreans than we want to admit. |
No, we're not. The West underwent a Schism, Reformation, 30 Years War, Enlightenment, American Revolution, French Revolution, Napoleonic Revolution, Russian Revolution, World War I, World War II.
The entire history of the West has been confronting the realities of our values and actions that arise from that values.
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You make it seem as thought Koreans were sipping soju while the West went through the enlightenment, revolution, etc. The truth is of course Korea had its own period of enlightenment, first with Buddhism and then the adoption of the world's first Confucian based government, basically installing the philosopher king that Plato talked of. Whatever your feelings about confucianism that was a period of enlightenment in Korea.
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On the whole, a great deal of slaughter resulted of this, but also a (dare I say?) superior perspective. Not because Western culture is inherently superior to Korean, only because both accidents and avoidable events of history have made it so.
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I agree. The West is a product of historical happenstance which make it different and not superior to Korea.
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Fair enough, I'm comparing a civilization to a nation.
Korea has been a perpetual junior partner since the 15th century, always under the wing of the Chinese or Japanese until 1945. But even its 형s have gone thru some events that would necessitate introspection.
China had the cultural revolution, coming to terms with the utter failure of Maoism. Japan had to deal with its militarism as well and the final deposition of its Heaven King. Korea has had a rough history, this can't be disputed, but this history has failed to produce a society that claims responsibility for its own actions, which makes it hard to respect, mitigating factors or no. IMHO. |
Korea has a modern democracy and until the recent change in power in Japan had the best democracy in NE Asia. Your comment is based on emotion and is too vague to be taken seriously. There are exceptions but it seems to me that some English teachers have become so anti-Korean that they are simply too emotional to discuss Korea in a calm rational fashion. cue Dwegi. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| At no point did I state that Korea owes its development solely to the West, I said the West is more advanced. Focus. |
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Gibberish
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:56 am Post subject: |
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If you want to get laid, don't go to Korea.
Also I think this report shows that it's probably easier to bed a Korean girl in America than in Korea. |
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shamham
Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| Korea is a mono ethnic society so Confucianism does make sense and is logical which contradicts the "Koreans are illogical" rants we see so often. The system works here in Korea. |
I showed this to my wife. She nodded and said 'Of course he think that. He a man.'
This is a woman, by the way (as I've said before)with a tremendous love of her home country and huge national pride. She cried when Park Tae-hwan won at the Olympics, and I never get the end of it re: Kim Yu-na. She ascribes to the 'Korea make it best' philosophy - all of our TV's and major appliances are from Korean companies. 
And yet - she doesn't seem to be wearing rose-colored glasses on this particular issue.
My niece is a twenty year old going to college. When they all visited recently I had a conversation with her where she said, basically: 'Korea is a man's world. I'm not going to live like that. I'm going to do what I want.'
Apparently not everyone agrees the system 'works' in Korea. |
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